The main argument is that the means dictates the ends, so if we want a non violent (and non opressing) society, punching people won’t help.

And this failed logic is exactly why we are where we at right now, on the brink of the Fourth Reich rising across the US and Europe.

Because tolerant people have forgotten the most important thing about a tolerant society.

That it must be rigorously and viciously defended from those who seek to exploit the social contract to elevate their attacks on it, and it requires far more than words and wind to achieve that... again, as evidence of where we are now as a society. Because their ultimate goal is to undo the society we love, and replace it with oppression, fear, and hatred.

Non-violence is a nice ideal, but just that. There's only so much protests can do, if nazi germany had been met with non-violence, imagine what would have happened. Conversely, imagine how many lives would have been saved if Hitler had been stopped before becoming it's leader. It's the same thing with US politics, Trump is basically a neo nazi. This is undeniable if you read project 2025. The US is drifting further and further right, and that means closer and closer to becoming a new nazi germany. And besides all that, if someone is advocating for killing me, then I'm going to want them gone.

Tolerance ends with intolerance. Being nice and civil leads to things like the storming of the US Capital. If US Republicans, for example, felt no resistance then they would organize a crusade into Springfield Ohio.

It is because we live in a world of controversy and civil unrest that racists cannot simply commit massacres and lynchings like in the old days.

We have to show fangs, not bellies, to aggressive animals.

Make the world a better place

Punch a nazi in the face

(transcribed from a series of tweets) - @iamragesparkle

I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, "no. get out."

And the dude next to me says, "hey i'm not doing anything, i'm a paying customer." and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, "out. now." and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed

Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, "you didn't see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them."

And i was like, ohok and he continues.

"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it's always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don't want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.

And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it's too late because they're entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.

And i was like, 'oh damn.' and he said "yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people."

And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven't forgotten that at all.

I live in Germany. No punches are needed here, just call the cops and BAM off to jail with the idiot.

Spent enough time in the punk scene to know some people are very serious about it.

The biggest advocates for non-violence are white cis heterosexual men. It is the failure to recognize the multifaceted nature of violence itself. Punching a Nazi can mean that other Nazis stop looking up to them, and they stop being able to effectively organize.

You should be selective and strategic with who you punch. Typically you will want to go for leadership, or the guy who offers a connection between two groups that you consider a risk.

That being said, you should also consider that you probably aren't going to have as much success punching a Nazi on their terms. A lot of them are into their gym and guns so it tends to be to your advantage to catch them alone when you are in a group. Sometimes the opportunity will come after one of their demonstrations when they are walking to their car. Other times, it can be useful to find where they live and work.

Punching Nazis isn't an everyday thing but its unrealistic to claim it isn't sometimes necessary. It works very effectively as part of a bigger picture. Alongside it, you can put stickers on their doors in the middle of the night. If the circumstances arise, you can do silly stuff like convincing one that another fascist is sleeping with his equally shitty wife.

The anarchists cookbook is 99% misinformation, and outdated on top.

I don't think a lot of Lemmy users are out in the world doing much punching.

Fascists don't respond to logic or reasoning, they know only violence so you should speak to them in a language they understand

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00131857.2018.1519772

Violence in a vacuum? Deplorable. Violence against a person preaching or encouraging violence? Questionable. Violence against a known fascist? Absolutely acceptable.

Fascists hide in the grey areas of free speech and often make arguments, much like this post OP, that twist ethics to support their rhetoric.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/19/544641070/explaining-again-thenazis-true-evil

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism%E2%80%93intentionalism_debate

You may want to investigate the original author of the anarchist cookbook William Powell. He later wanted to remove the book from publication.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Powell-American-writer

Also please do not follow any of the recipes, especially the match head bomb as they're all a great way to lose fingers

So in conclusion, considering your original points sound similar to the historical defense of fascists, and that book looks to carry the language of fascists.

How serious is the author of that book about not getting punched?

I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned the Paradox of Tolerance. Essentially if you tolerate intolerance, the intolerants will eventually seize power and make an intolerant society, the only way a society can become truly tolerant is by being intolerant towards intolerance.

It's paradoxical, but makes absolute sense. If you allow Nazis to spread their ideology eventually there will be enough Nazis to be able to take the power by force, and when they do they'll setback all of the tolerance that was advanced. The only way to prevent it is by cutting the evil at the root and prevent Nazis from spreading their ideology.

Personally I believe that punching a person who hasn't tried to attack me or anyone is wrong. But the moment someone openly preaches that someone else must be exterminated they're inciting violence which can encourage others to act on it, to me, morally speaking, attacking that person is as much self defense as if they were commiting the act themselves.

Would I personally punch a person because they're spewing hate? Probably not, I would probably try to talk to them and understand their point of view and try to convince them otherwise, since I believe that punching them would make the person close himself to any reasoning from outside of his group, which would make him more Nazi than before. But I also don't think it's morally wrong to do so, it's just not the optimal way of dealing with it.

They want my wife and children dead. If they are near my family, they pose an existential threat. I will leave saving the proverbial souls of neo Nazis to others. I am interested in establishing that my family is off limits and dangerous for them to so much as look at.

Would I throw a punch at a confirmed Nazi? Without hesitation.

Some people learn to shed the racism from their heart and become better people. Some will only get so far as keeping quiet because they are afraid. There will always be severely racist people. It is just as important that they feel unequivocally unwelcome as it is to change those who will change.

This is the way I've come to look at it: non-violence is ideal, but non-violence is one of many "languages." (Obviously here we're just talking about violence, but yknow some is political, some is social, etc.) Some people can speak many of these, some people only speak one or refuse to use others (like how you say you will only use nonviolence.)

The issue is that some people only speak one language, and aren't going to "understand" (be persuaded or moved by) others no matter what. A bigot only understands hate and emotion so they aren't going to be swayed from that position by logic or facts because they don't "speak" that language.

What I'm getting at, is that for people who only speak violence - non-violence doesn't mean anything to them except an easy target. They aren't going to consider your viewpoint because you won't fight back, they won't back down because "clearly you aren't a threat." They're going to violence until they reach their ends. With somebody like that, you have to "speak their language."

Of course on an individual level you (maybe) can get the police to handle it, but on a social level like dealing with nazis you have to keep them scared of return violence. They are violent by nature (the entire ideology is elimination of undesirables) and should be treated as such. Let them know that we punch nazis. Let them know they aren't the only ones with guns and unlike most of them we go to the range. Let them know if they wear iron crosses and shit they're getting kicked the fuck out. Fuck them, and let them know we'd be happy to fuck em up if they want to give us the opportunity.

I'm generally anti-violence myself, but I'm also a large guy so I'm lucky enough to be able to avoid it. I can't bring myself to be a pacifist though. Knocking some kid around is easy come take a swing at me and see how it goes. Shrug

I became a leftist, because I got enough of the liberal "they go low, we go high" mantra. You never turn the other cheeck to a person, who will proceed to punch it again. In fact, if they once failed to do better in such cases, they're just want to abuse your fair game.

just like violence isn't applicable everywhere, non-violence isn't applicable everywhere.

back in the day, nazis used to get violently run out of shows because they tried to infiltrate the punk movement and punks said "Nazi punks fuck off" and then punched them until they left.

I’ve punched plenty of nazis. They try to infiltrate our punk and metal scenes and cause shit, being one of the bigger guys there who also has training, it’s my responsibility to help make sure they don’t fucking stick around.

You can try and go the pacifist route with these people, but I know from experience that it doesn’t do Jack shit, and they’ll keep coming back with their dumb bullshit, and more and more will start showing up unless you shut that shit down hard.

I’m in my 40’s now, but as a teenager that used to go to a lot of punk shows; I can assure you the sentiment is literal. A group of anti-nazis can give a few nazis a really bad time.

I've seen too many examples throughout history of people trying to use nonviolence and do things the right way and just getting slaughtered because the other side simply does not care to be a pacifist. The world is clearly a better place because people employed violence in WWII to stop the Nazis. And street fighting in the 30's was one of the ways that the Nazis secured their power in the first place.

Nonviolent methods are tools that are useful to have in your toolbox, and in many situations, they are more practical in achieving your ends. But there are cases were violence is more practical, even necessary, and one shouldn't shy away from it when it's needed. You gotta have your head in the game, the stakes are too high. A diversity of tactics is best.

The logic that violence is oppressive so it should be renounced in all cases in order to reduce oppression is idealist. You have to look at the actual evidence and material situation to evaluate what effects violence will have in a given situation.

Punching Nazis is cool and good. Just try not to get arrested for it because it'll take you out of the action longer than it will them.

See the thing about the supposed cycle of violence is that it implies equal fault and innocence of both sides. It relies on toleration theory.

Toleration is a treaty, when you break it you are no longer protected by it. It is an entirely justifiable and moral act to instigate violence against fascists, because their very ideology is a violation of the treaty of toleration, and their organization is one which cannot sustain itself in the face of repeated attacks.

You often hear complaints about how enforcing internet rules against the fascists just leads to whackamole bans, but the thing is that every successive ban leaves the fascists less coordinated, less emboldened, and more isolated. There is a critical point of punitive and preventative acts where a fascist org is effectively atomized and anyone worth pulling out has been rock bottomed into a holding space where they can be rehabbed.

Peaceful methods are what can be achieved after you've destroyed them, either through hounding operations making it less and less possible for them to group up and act together, or by normalizing violence and intolerance against them to the extent that they are at least afraid enough to stop trying to not be sniveling cowards such as the fascist naturally is.

The true fascist is only kept quiet in an environment of fear, where they know that trying to stick their heads up will get it lopped off in short order. An environment where even peacible means of antifascism still include complete social ostracism and career destruction, and where persistent fascism is met with swift and appropriate violent rejection.

Don't just punch the Nazis, dox them to their families and employers and communities, encourage others to be armed and ready to attack preemptively in their presence, organize around making that Nazi specifically know their rightful place is silent and afraid until they've cut the shit and stopped being a nazi, before someone ends up killing them in self defense.

I am serious enough that I have punched nazis before and look forward to a time when I can punch nazis again.

Violence is necessary for a functioning society to address those that reject the social contract that are not amenable to rationale.

Some people are more dangerous alive than the disruption their death would have caused.

I appreciate and understand that you are a strict pacifist, and that you feel it is a worthwhile life to follow, and I agree with you.

The problem is, in order for most of the populace to be pacifists, there still needs to be agents of violence to remove the disruptors who wish to co-opt or destroy our society that are not amenable to words.

Your ideology cannot exist in the real word as it will be consumed by other ideologies that do not eschew violence.

If you don't punch back they will simply continue to steamroll anyone they see as inferior.

Nazis get worse if you don't actively oppose them. That can look like punching them, but it can also look like actively ostracizing them by taking away their jobs, denying them participation in community events, or just straight up shaming them in public.

Pacifism only works if the other side isn't willing to kill you. These jackasses fantasize about genociding people as a hobby, so if you think pacifism is going to work for you then go right ahead but I'll be over here working on my defensive skills.

In many situations nazi-punching is not your best tactical decision, especially in the presence of cops. Using your words to hurt the poor Nazi snowflakes feelings works just as well and has the added benefit of potentially provoking them into getting themselves arrested if there are cops watching.

Violence must be organized and accountable to be just. Non-violence is always preferred, and is always the initial approach.

But if there is a credible threat, defensive violence is OK as long as whoever is being violent accepts whatever accountability may come.

I'm conflicted about it, but the fact is one reason the US has been so successful in leading the world in relative peace (as compared to WWII and before, not compared to the ideal) is because we have so much capacity for violence in our back pocket.

"Talk softly and carry a big stick."

I've never punched anyone and I don't plan to start.

I'm not big on violence, and I don't enjoy hitting people, but I've done it a couple of times and I'm always willing to throw down with nazis. If we're not willing to defend ourselves and others, we might as well just hand them the keys and let them do whatever they want. That's gonna be a hard no for me.

My great grandfather would have shot them. He did shoot them. For King and Country. And I'm proud of this fact 😎🇬🇧

The contract of tolerance requires swift shutting down of the intolerant 🤛

• “Self-defense is not violence!”
• “No tolerance for intolerance!”
• you don’t want your place becoming a Nazi bar

don't use violence, if you value your life. violence is for idiots.

there's the tolerance paradox: you should use the least amount of violence that keeps society (and your own life) stable.

I'm just gonna focus entirely on the common misunderstanding of the use of violence against Nazis in WWII because that's such a common argument for punching nazis and it's really quite wrong on so many levels.

"But Nazis were stopped by violence in WWII." That's a meaningless statement without the missing last word. Violence stopped Nazis militarily, after they had already seized power in Germany and were invading other countries. Today we're not in a military battle with Nazis, we're in an ideological battle.

So why did the Nazis seize power in Germany? Because they weren't punched enough? Well the exact mechanism behind how the nazis seized power is a complex web of illegal political maneuvers, political violence, and yes, some degree of ideological success by the nazis. But a key part of that ideological success was the fear of political violence by their opponents - most notably the Reichstag fire - to justify the power that they were illegally taking. It was basically "desperate times require desperate measures". So in the ideological battle, the perceived* use of violence by Nazi opponents was actually a key part of their victory within Germany.

Meanwhile, over in the US, the contrast between the violence employed by the German American Bund (the US version of the Nazi party) and largely Jewish peaceful protesters ended up being a massive embarrassment to the Bund from which they never recovered. Again, ideologically, non-violence proved quite effective.

Point being, and this should be obvious - violence is a really bad option for succeeding in an ideological battle. Yes, in a military battle, it's the only rational option. But in an ideological battle, it's actually counterproductive.

*Obligatory caveat that whether the Reichstag fire was actually set by nazi opponents remains debated, but suffice to say the political atmosphere at the time made it plausible.

The whole "Punch a Nazi Day!" has two origins:

Captain America #1 - 12/20/1940 - A full YEAR before the US entered the war:

Right Wing Nazi Richard Spencer getting punched during a live interview:

https://youtu.be/aFh08JEKDYk

I am serious that they should be punched. I am a non-violent person, so I hope that someone better fit for the job does it. If faced with a nazi that I think I can take or one that I think I can sorta take, I might punch them myself.

I didn't think this way until I read, Culture Warlords: My Journey Into the Dark Web of White Supremacy, by Talia Levin. After, I am firmly in the "punch a nazi" camp.

Personally I believe violence should only be used in defense of self or innocent people around you from imminent threats, never otherwise. Use words to fight words, use ideas to fight ideas, use fists to fight fists, guns to fight guns or knives. Straight pacifism to the degree of foregoing defense seems naive to me, but so does using violence for anything but defense from violence.

Our fear has made us gullible A bully rose to take control And now they’re yelling “off with their heads!” We’ve been through this, we ended it Or so we thought it had been fought It’s like an army back from the dead...