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submitted 20 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) by Beardsley@lemmy.world to c/gaming@lemmy.ml

I think gamers as a whole, though specifically those in niche communities, need to take a long and hard look at themselves. We should celebrate the volunteers that create wonderful content for us, generally with no financial gain. Instead, commonly, there are communities that criticize and tear down every little thing they can think of. They even went as far as to doxx the poor woman. We need to be better, and we need to hold these kind of toxic trolls accountable. Especially those of us who are men, we have a responsibility to call out other men who mistreat women in the gaming industry, or gaming in general.

*Edit: I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all. My sentiment is that many of us do not think about this kind of thing, and less are willing to speak out against their friends. We need to be better about that as a whole. I appreciate you as a person if you are already of this mindset.

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[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 18 points 3 hours ago

Welcome to the world of making software for random people, almost certainly made worse by she being a woman.

As others pointed out, most people do appreciate it, but they tend to be silent about it, whilst a small minority are demanding little whinny bitches (in a non-gendered way) who think they're owed service and some are even trolls.

To those reading this, I suggest when you get something you like for free you at least give some feedback that you liked it and, if the person has some kind of sponsoring scheme going on and you really like it, consider contributing, if only to incentivise more of the same.

Those on the other side are people too and they will appreciate it.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 hours ago

Gam*rs need reeducation.

[-] korbel@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 hours ago

Reading the article, this is a typical case of burnout. It's happening to every artist, content creator, modder, foss developer, etc. On the long term we all have to find a balance or we won't last long. And tbh, just learn to ignore the trolls and focus on the positive things and your passion or they will win. You can't take them seriously. It seems the person in the article has already found herself another passion project and could throw away the suffocating chains of responsibilty and something she did not enjoy anymore and move on. I think instances like these really show us we are all just humans and we should appreciate the things we are given.

[-] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 59 points 11 hours ago

I don't want you to feel like you're getting it from all sides but...

I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all

You really gotta ignore those "not all gamers" type of posters. They are literally adding nothing to the conversation. If you are a normal person who doesn't harass women only, then you should also be a normal person who doesn't take offense when the community as a whole is criticized.

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[-] LongboardingLad@lemmy.world 9 points 9 hours ago

Stuff like this is why I don't tell people I game. The Gamer Stink is real and I don't want to be guilty by association. Seriously, go touch grass. The things that you're denigrating someone else for are pixels and code on a computer. Find some way to not be garbage humans.

Her music is interesting. Hope she ends up happier

[-] The_Helmet_Stays_On@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 11 hours ago

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.

[-] BranBucket@lemmy.world 4 points 10 hours ago

A rather astute observation found in an unlikely place, and one of my favorite move lines of all times.

[-] SendMePhotos@lemmy.world 36 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

"I poured many years of my life into this, just to feel empty. In quitting, I have found my real passion, and have been obsessively working on music. I've even released my first ever album, SPIDERWEB PRINCESS, which is filled with my darkest, most genuine feelings from all of my experiences. Nothing I've ever done has ever been so meaningful to me. I have so much of myself to share with the world, and I'd much rather be remembered for something I actually enjoy."

Apparently her new passion is music. SPIDERWEB PRINCESS

[-] pech@lemmy.world 7 points 14 hours ago

Thank you for showing me this, she rocks.

[-] SendMePhotos@lemmy.world 7 points 13 hours ago

Yeah it's pretty neat.

[-] ramble81@lemm.ee 53 points 16 hours ago

This is the sexism that we saw come out during the election. We thought the country was getting better but they were just quietly simmering but connecting online.

I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 hours ago

We thought the country was getting better

Who the hell thought the country was getting better? No one I know. This is the same weak basket of deplorables excuse the DNC used for Hillary Clinton’s loss. Because they’ll blame anyone but themselves for their failures.

The Democrats fail because they’ve embraced grinding neoliberalism for an entire generation, because they abandoned the working class long ago. The DNC crushed Sanders—twice—because even a little social safety net, as a treat, is a bridge too far for them. Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed

I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.

Fascism isn’t on the rise in the US in particular and the West in general for no reason. The cause is ever-worsening neoliberalism, which is monopoly capitalism in decay. I wrote about this two months ago, but I’ll spare everyone the copypasta and just link to it.

[-] IzzyJ@lemmy.world 7 points 10 hours ago

I did, for one

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[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 23 points 14 hours ago

IMO the vast majority of people that use community mods are pretty thankful and just enjoy them despite any issues the mod has so long as overall it works well. They just play and keep their mouths shut.

There are a few that offer real and constructive criticism.

And the rest are the vocal trolls that just hate on everything. Unfortunately if they aren't "fucking your mother last night" on whatever game chat you might be on they're busy trashing on the "unplayable" game they've spent 500 hours playing in the last several months or on the forums berating the modders' efforts. They're just hateful people and hating on women in general is par for the course, if one dares participating in gaming they're just another target for their shitty incel behavior.

[-] Smoogs@lemmy.world 10 points 8 hours ago

If you’re assumed to be a male, the trolls attack you if you don’t carry them. Fine, move on.

If they find out you’re female, they attack you just for existing. You can move on but It is relentless.

There is a difference in gaming experience when it comes to trolls.

[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 2 points 4 hours ago

I wasn’t debating that at all.

[-] obbeel@lemmy.eco.br 10 points 14 hours ago

I think the gaming community being made of socially awkward, isolated and unemployed people doesn't help the scenario. But I think there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[-] Kyrgizion@lemmy.world 154 points 19 hours ago

The only interaction I've ever had with authors of mods and such was sending them thanks for their hard work. Sad.

[-] AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com 132 points 19 hours ago

Good for her for making the right decision for her own wellbeing. Too many sad little fucks on the Internet who spend all their time harassing others. Pathetic existence.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 67 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

I don't understand people who "demand" things from volunteers. Open source devs, modders, and still recently content creators are/were treated like public service workers, by some.

Imagine if we went around treating artists as if they were obligated to please each of us individually with their every piece? I'm very happy to see this attitude improve with streaming and youtube, where creators are more and more met with care and support when they have to step away for a bit or retire entirely.

It sadly seems like this modder was eventually putting in tremendous effort, in a vain attempt to please absolutely everyone using her mods. But that isn't a good reason to work for free.

Any work I do for free, is something I do because I want to, but this modder explicitly says she did work she didn't want to do in order to please fans. And I can't help but ask, why? (I know why, but someone should have cared enough to show her she is allowed to just say no, and do whatever she prefers.)

The blurb about her doing music is how you're SUPPOSED to feel doing something for fun. I'm happy that she found her way to something that makes her feel that way.

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[-] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 30 points 18 hours ago

now before anyone gets misled by some of the reddit threads gamesradar linked to, some quotes from the relevant reddit thread:

I worked extensively on most of her mods. In the period immediately following the Daegon 2.0 controversy, I tracked down several recurring trolls (people here might remember them as cycling through Reddit usernames like "SeranasStankPussy" and other such things) as originating from literal Kiwifarms.

She made a female follower mod called Daegon. It was a suggestive follower with sexy voice and looks, and "bratty princess" personality.

There was an idea about developing romance option for the follower. The fans were so excited about it. However she ended up adding a bodyguard character as Daegon's romantic partner instead of opening the options to player. Daegon also had a major backstory rewrite, which was deemed as straying too far from TES lore. Fans felt betrayed. The backlash was so fervently hostile that anything the author posted always received downvotes and she was demeaned/harassed for posting anything (something like "you dare to show your face here?"), even when it's not related to Daegon.

At the time, she removed the old version and people leaked her discord server chat, which was very hostile and demeaning to the people complaining.

Basically: the mod author developed and people on her discord developed a para-social relationship and it went as expected. You can search this sub for that whole thing

There's more details on her discord (as usual):

my photos get passed around on skyrim servers, im called a slut and whore, and for what?

gamesradar linked to a few of the threads that got overwhelmed with trolls, who amplified how she blocked users (some of which inappropriately) from her mod pages and claimed she encouraged her fans to doxx people based on a single out-of-context screenshot of a random discord fan.

[-] YarrMatey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 12 hours ago

This is a both sides suck here for me.

I read a few of the reddit threads and there were legitimate criticisms that the follower started out cringey and edgy but a lore-friendly bratty elf and then after some big update the follower was turned into an over-the-top melodramatic edgy super evil non-lore-friendly entity (vampire demon dragon princess from another reality that is more powerful than any of the gods of TES) who now had a boyfriend equally evil with many voice lines about how much the two of them were horny for each other, and like to burn down inns full of people for fun.

There were some cringey guys upset they were being cucked, too many gamers in general are obsessed about the possibility of being cucked by some pixels and are ridiculously fragile about it.

But the mod author lashed out at both the trolls and people caught in the crossfire, the community became more upset, just an angry cycle. People asked about being able to download the old version before the changes since the mod author hid the older version - Nexus doesn't allow mod authors to delete their work anymore so people's mod lists don't break but they for some stupid reason allow mod authors to hide older versions from users which can only be accessed by having the right link and it is a pain to get. Eventually the mod author releases the older version again as its own mod. But at this point the community hates them because of an image showing someome on the mod author's discord talking about doxxing anyone who upset the mod author which the author offered gleeful support of.

There was a guy in the thread (ZootAllures9111) who said he helped develop and code the mod (you quoted him in your comment) and he said that practically all criticisms were trolls from kiwifarms, and that the person who wanted to doxx others on the discord was just being silly and edgy and only disingenuous people would take their silly edginess at face value. Also that they won't play "this game with you" when asked how the mod author responded to this person wanting to doxx people because (CW:transphobia) the only image you need to look at is some random troll on a website called kiwifarms complaining about being a third wheel to two horny NPCs in the mod and something about being a cuck and that other followers don't need sex to sell basically. Then when someone in the reddit thread asks why they keep posting and deleting their same comment with someone else chiming in confirming they also noticed this, the guy offers a reasonable explanation about network issues and then says, "I remember you from the comment sections of our mods now by the way, you are exactly as disingenous as I thought yesterday and you're not gonna get anywhere pretending otherwise." Which the innocent guy replies, "You should maybe take a break because you’re getting paranoid now. I’ve never used your mod, have no intention to, and the first time I’ve heard of all this drama was when this thread came up."

Why mention this? Because I think it is shitty to "joke" about doxxing people and defend this "joking" and call everyone speaking out a troll from kiwifarm and I can see why the community doesn't like the direction the author took and how annoying it is to not be able to go back to an older version of the mod. And I've read the threads, they were not overwhelmed with trolls unless you think people who criticize a mod author are always trolls. But I also think it is shitty and unacceptable how much harassment the author got. They are not the first author to get harassed off of Skyrim modding, even Vilja's author was chased off for IMO stupid reasons. The Skyrim modding community is full of assholes, both mod authors and users alike. It used to be routine how many mod authors would lose their shit and delete their mods.

[-] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 5 points 11 hours ago

i get that there's valid criticism, but the amount of bad was incongruent with the amount of vitriol in that era that were so demanding

the mod author lashed out at both the trolls and people caught in the crossfire

where tho

it is shitty to "joke" about doxxing people

definitely, but none of us have seen the context. i've been having trouble finding the discord server, and it'd be great if you could find it and the context

they were not overwhelmed with trolls

that's how they read, especially when you compare their comments to the reddit post i linked. not even the sympathy for a person who leaves explains the difference to me

[-] YarrMatey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

I typed a long ass comment on my phone and summit crashed not saving any of it, fucking hell. Anyway I have to refind all the comments again.

Here is where:

u/WoodenRocketShip

People absolutely dragged the mod and the mod author when the update with her boyfriend came out. Normally if people got that mad over something that happens in a mod you'd get pushback from others saying that it's just not for you and it's not your place to judge, but the mod author was also silencing critics and absolutely going off with her army of followers, so yeah no pushback everyone was on the same page. For a couple of weeks she and her mod were the big bads of this subreddit.

u/Live_Hippo_5885

That's a bit wild silencing your critics changing her race and backstory is a bit drastic but it's their mod I suppose, I don't really care that she has a boyfriend I like having a bro to adventure with dude's just kind of a dick imo.

u/WoodenRocketShip

Yeah see if it was just that, then I'd just chalk it up as a mod that I'm uninstalling and never thinking about it again as I barely liked Daegon before. If the mod author didn't go around silencing criticism in the mod's comments, some of which wasn't even criticism and was from genuine fans curious about certain things, then I don't think many people would have said anything.

People on this thread claimed they were banned for not liking the mod, asking questions about the mod, etc. before the comments section was removed altogether.

The context of the discord image joking about doxxing given by the Zoot guy defending the mod author is that it was a random discord user who they did not know who was known for being overdramatic and later on they think someone else told the user to cool it. Doxxing is serious to me so I do not think this context absolves the image, it feels worse since the mod author doesn't even know the person and just gleefully agrees with them to the point another rando has to tell them to stop. I think the mod author is immature and the random user probably a teenager. It's the only thing that makes sense why they would joke like that. I'm not digging for the discord, I've not only already wasted enough time with this comment since summit crashed on me but also find it a waste of time.

The thread talking about the mod author leaving was very sympathetic. My original comment had the top 9 or 10 comments and a few replies from the thread to prove to you that it was not overwhelmed by trolls. But there is no way I'm doing that again. Just read it yourself. If you still think they are not sympathetic enough then something is seriously wrong with your interpretation.

[-] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 2 points 3 hours ago

I actually read the part about banning too many people, though I wouldn't characterize it as "lashing out". I'm pretty sure I included a quote about it but I didn't. Weird.

I wasn't saying they weren't sympathetic enough, I'm saying that the amount of criticizing here is way too little compared to the two threads linked in the article to shrug off as caused by sympathy.

[-] YarrMatey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 hours ago

I think it is lashing out to ban people for no reason. They were so upset by the trolls that people with legitimate criticisms were banned (which Zoot says they never had an issue with, it was only trolls they did not like) and then people just curious about the mod and asking questions were also banned.

Sorry, I seem to be misunderstanding you because I do not know what you quite mean anymore. You said "that's how they read, especially when you compare their comments to the reddit post i linked. not even the sympathy for a person who leaves explains the difference to me" which I thought meant there was an overwhelming amount of people who were trolls for not having sympathy for the mod author leaving. Now you are saying that people were criticizing too much in the other threads, and I'm not sure what is being shrugged off as sympathy.

[-] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 1 points 51 minutes ago

Since she later reinstated and it was the only banning controversy, I don't think it's something work sticking to the record. "Lashing out" also has the connotation of straight-up attacking people, not just banning them. Not to mention I have yet to see receipts about the bans and for what messages.

So, the amount of criticism is way less in the thread about leaving than the thread, say, "I'm sad about Draego. Like the "pushback from others saying that it's just not for you and it's not your place to judge" was buried and never seen (by default sorting) in the Daegon threads. I don't think this difference in community opinion can be explained by just the sympathy for leaving alone.

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[-] darthelmet@lemmy.world 36 points 18 hours ago

People are asses sometimes, but whenever these conversations come up, I wonder: What do you even want from us? How are random people on the internet supposed to hold random anonymous trolls on the internet “accountable?” You can call them asses, but so? What if they don’t care? They’re anonymous. You could get mods to ban them, but if it’s a free service they can always make another anonymous account. It’s even more confusing in the context of something like an online game as opposed to a forum. What are you supposed to do about someone being an ass when you’ve probably never seen them before and probably won’t see them again?

[-] Beardsley@lemmy.world 19 points 16 hours ago

I mean, call them asses. Maybe they don't care, maybe they do, but we keep the problem relevant by being vocal against this kind of thing. To not do anything at all is to encourage trolls.

[-] TexasDrunk@lemmy.world 12 points 14 hours ago

The prevailing wisdom for dealing with trolls in the past has been report, block, and move on. You never know if someone is going to thrive on that kind of conflict and a whole lot of motherfuckers love it.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong because honestly I don't know. I'm just sad they're running off people contributing to their community and mad that they're sexually harassing people.

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[-] black_lugia@sh.itjust.works 27 points 18 hours ago

"gamers as a whole"

leave me out of this i didnt do anything.

[-] blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 2 points 4 hours ago

I've been a great fan of gaming for my entire long life. But I don't play online games any more, because so many gamers are toxic. Obviously there are good individuals and some good outposts, but taken as a whole it is a toxic community.

[-] Beardsley@lemmy.world 70 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

The sentiment is that we all have a responsibility to hold our community accountable for this type of behavior.

You can disagree, it is likely a matter of philosophy. I feel a responsibility to try to put more positive influence to the world, and to call out harmful actions. Not everyone does, that is fine too, albeit a little sad.

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 36 points 16 hours ago

Lol you're getting downvoted for having a rational viewpoint and wanting something you care about and enjoy to be safe for other humans to enjoy it too.

How fucking dare you

[-] Beardsley@lemmy.world 24 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

Lolol. Win some, lose some, it doesn't really matter. I made my point and am satisfied with that; it's anyone's right to disagree with me.

And if I am in the wrong for wanting a better community, then the state of humanity just makes me a little more sad. Far from surprised, however.

"Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what makes you cheer!"

[-] Flamekebab@piefed.social 18 points 14 hours ago

"Our community" feels a bit monolithic. It's like saying "film watchers" or "readers". Lumping anyone that plays video games regularly into a single social group feels unhelpfully reductive.

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[-] stardust@lemmy.ca 8 points 14 hours ago

I think gaming is too mainstream like television/movie viewers to lump it into some type of niche group/activity these days. Especially with the increased communication and connectivity that the internet provides that brings all sorts of wanted and unwanted people together.

I'm someone who enjoys gaming, and when I play games like The Finals these days I disable chat/voice because most people are assholes. Game previously didn't have chat and enabling that turned it from what felt like a wholesome community because I wasn't exposed to their thoughts to it breaking the illusion when they were able to express themselves.

I think this is more a more broad societal issue and a worrying one of being shown what people truly think. Even a minority is a huge amount when the population is billions, so a lot of damage can be done. Games is just another avenue they choose to be toxic in along side other vehicles provided to communicate their thoughts.

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this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2024
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