Zoos aren’t for animals. They’re for us. | Zoos say they’re leaders in protecting wildlife. But is it true? : environment

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 26 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I'm going to post one of my nested comments here, because I think it bears pointing out:

[This] article is full of rhetorical fallacies designed to influence you towards their view that zoos aren’t good.

Take this part about conservation funding:

“Zoos, aquariums and botanic gardens are critical conservation partners, and their role should not be under-valued, under-recognized or misunderstood,”

To which the opposition interviewee states:

“But the reality is that it’s really a very small fraction of their funding that is going to field conservation.”

That is not a direct response to the first assertion. The first quote didn’t assert that the majority of funds went to conservation, just that the funds that do are both significant and critical to conservation partners.

“That puts them collectively among the world’s largest contributors to conservation,” Daniel Ashe, president and CEO of the AZA, told Vox.

To which the clearly very biased author then responds:

However, it’s just 5 percent of how much zoos and aquariums spent on operations and construction alone in 2018.

Soooo? You think getting rid of those funds is better for conservation?

If you read the part on breeding, they do something similar; they embed one section, that acknowledges that zoos have in fact been key to successful breeding and reintroduction programs, inside several quotes of personal opinions: the first one literally from a newspaper opinion piece, and the second from an actual scientist who acknowledges that the breeding programs do work, but just doesn’t personally think that is justification enough for zoos.

This article is biased trash. There are plenty of arguments to have about the ethics of zoos, but this article is not dealing with those head-on, because they’re not clear-cut. Instead, it’s trying to trick you into thinking that none of the actual positive impacts of zoos exist.

This is how smart misinformation works; use leading language and selective quotes to make the viewers think you said something you didn’t, so you can always go, “Oh, but I never SAID the breeding programs don’t work, or that the funding isn’t important!”

[-] frog@beehaw.org 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I'm inclined to agree with this take. And to add to it, I think accusing zoos and aquariums of not spending enough on conservation, because they spend so much more on operations and construction is pretty unfair, because obviously the author hasn't actually considered the fact that zoos and aquariums are incredibly expensive to run.

At least in my country, most zoos are charities, not companies: they're not run to make profit. They're not cash cows for greedy shareholders. So the money they make from visitors and donations, unsurprisingly is mostly spent on those annoying "luxuries" like feeding the animals, paying the staff, maintaining the enclosures, etc, and where funds allow it, improving the enclosures. My local zoo almost always has some kind of construction work going on as they retire old enclosures that are now not considered sufficient for the animals within, and build new ones that are more suitable, either for that species or a different one.

The zoos that are legally companies rather than charities (due to regulatory laws) are small zoos that predominantly house exotic pets that other people could no longer take care of. These are animals that were either captive bred or taken from the wild at a young age, which often have complex health or behavioural needs: they cannot be returned to the wild or used in breeding programs, they just need somewhere to live where they'll be looked after. These kind of zoos are often run by 2-3 people, who spend the "profits" of their zoo on luxuries like food and shelter for themselves.

Personally, I'm fine with the fact that zoos and aquariums spend the bulk of their money on looking after the animals in their care. I can't see how zoos neglecting their animals in order to spend more money on direct conservation would be morally justifiable. If only 5% is being spent on conservation elsewhere because 5% is all that was left over after the rest went on making sure their animals are happy and healthy, I don't have a problem with that. Especially when happy, healthy animals in captivity are so vital to breeding programs.

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

That is a selective misreading of what the article is claiming. The article is talking about how zoos are claiming conservation is the main reason zoos are ok and should exist. Near the top of the article:

The way that zoos have been trying to justify their existence for quite a few years now is pointing to conservation,

They are pointing out how it's misleading to say we contribute a decent bit so we're deep into conservation, but ignore that's not the main things they spend their time and money on

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

It's not misleading at all. You are the one (along with the author) who simply thinks that there is some objective percentage amount required (which apparently you don't think they clear) before you can take credit for the positive impacts you cause.

"Zoos aren't spending enough of their money on conservation" is not a refutation of, "The money that zoos do generate for conservation is both significant and important".

[-] thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

One other thing that zoos do that has always struck me as important is put certain species essentially in protective custody (gorillas and condors come to mind). Condors were able to recover in the wild BECAUSE zoos served as a protected gene bank for the species. Is this ideal? Fuck no! Ideal would be idiots didn't fucking wipe out condors in the wild. When a human being is in protective custody, it probably sucks but it will save your life from other piece of shit human beings if you ever need it! Let's focus on the fact that the world is such that we've had to do this with whole species of animals because of shitty human reasons BEFORE we start Karening at zoos because of some armchair ass pseudo-vegan principles from some privileged ass hipsters. I mean... we live in a world of poaching, deforestation, factory farms, ocean acidification and global warming and THIS is the hill you're gonna die on? Fuck off.

[-] Devi@beehaw.org 4 points 11 months ago

I'm not sure what you and the author want here? Do you want them to neglect the animals they hold to give more to in situ conservation? Do you want them to have less animals? Less animals means less money so even less being sent. No animals means no money.

It's also ignoring the fact that in situ conservation isn't the goal here. Zoos themselves are ex-situ conservation. They have literally bought animals back from extinction, or protected threatened species.

Look at the current Tasmanian Devil Programme.

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I think it's quite clear that people in the comments are not reading the article and reacting to the headline alone and maybe the first few paragraphs. Scroll to the end of the article where it starts taking about sanctuaries and funding and how they don't expect any of this to be an easy process

[-] Devi@beehaw.org 2 points 11 months ago

What is your point here?

They claim to want sanctuaries, but don't seem to actually know what a sanctuary means. They're against captive breeding, which is the whole conservation bit that they claim to be for. They also want these to be closed, which means no money? It's just a really weird view from someone who has no understanding of conservation or reality.

[+] MJBrune@beehaw.org 9 points 11 months ago

[deleted]

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The argument for zoos protecting animals is about allowing regular people to see wild animals up close, allowing to humanize/ empathize with them enough to actually care about protecting the ones still in the wild.

Are zoos perfect? No.

In an ideal world, would zoos exist? No.

Are they the only link that most people ever experience to nature, and especially to nature that doesn't exist within driving distance? Sadly, yes.

And that experience of seeing and empathizing with animals is hugely important to driving funding for conservation movements/ orgs. A water buffalo is just a damp cow in another country for a lot of people, until they actually see one.

Here are some other ways zoos assist in animal conservation:

Veterinary medicine research
Breeding programs for endangered species
Short-term animal rescue and rehabilitation programs/ housing

[-] MJBrune@beehaw.org 3 points 11 months ago

I feel like zoos don't help people humanize or empathize with animals. The folks that go are constantly trying to verbally prod or physically poke animals. People knock on the glass and yell at the animals to do something more than just lay around. They typically lay around because they are depressed or tired. So without stats, I can't take it at face value that people are closer to animals because of zoos.

[-] Robin_net@beehaw.org 7 points 11 months ago

While I know anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much, I personally felt a lot of empathy towards the animals when I took my son last year. I think it is hard to read every plaque in front of the exhibits and not be sad. Almost every plaque says something about how the animals exhibited are struggling in the wild due to everything humans do to the planet, and each one gives suggestions on how we can improve the world. I may be a rare case though because I can understand and acknowledge the environmental impact we have as humans, and I actually read the plaques. I think you may be right about the majority of people who go to the zoo, but I do feel like it is effective if people engage with the lessons that zoos try to teach.

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 6 points 11 months ago

That would be nearly impossible to quantify, but research around this area shows that empathizing with animals through accurate understanding of them is important for conservation support.

Research suggests that animal-oriented learning institutions—including zoos, aquariums, sanctuaries, and nature centers—may be uniquely positioned to spark and nurture people's empathy for animals.

Although this research did not definitively identify links between people, animals, empathy, and conservation behaviors, the evidence indicated that developing empathy toward animals can be a powerful way to promote conservation behaviors.

[-] pimento64@sopuli.xyz 1 points 11 months ago

Way to ignore the second half

[+] MJBrune@beehaw.org 1 points 11 months ago

[deleted]

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

No, the article is full of rhetorical fallacies designed to influence you towards their view that zoos aren't good.

Take this part about conservation funding:

“Zoos, aquariums and botanic gardens are critical conservation partners, and their role should not be under-valued, under-recognized or misunderstood,”

To which the opposition interviewee states:

“But the reality is that it’s really a very small fraction of their funding that is going to field conservation.”

That is not a direct response to the first assertion. The first quote didn't assert that the majority of funds went to conservation, just that the funds that do are both significant and critical to conservation partners.

“That puts them collectively among the world’s largest contributors to conservation,” Daniel Ashe, president and CEO of the AZA, told Vox.

To which the clearly very biased author then responds:

However, it’s just 5 percent of how much zoos and aquariums spent on operations and construction alone in 2018.

Soooo? You think getting rid of those funds is better for conservation?

If you read the part on breeding, they do something similar; they embed one section, that acknowledges that zoos have in fact been key to successful breeding and reintroduction programs, inside several quotes of personal opinions: the first one literally from a newspaper opinion piece, and the second from an actual scientist who acknowledges that the breeding programs do work, but just doesn't personally think that is justification enough for zoos.

This article is biased trash. There are plenty of arguments to have about the ethics of zoos, but this article is not dealing with those head-on, because they're not clear-cut. Instead, it's trying to trick you into thinking that none of the actual positive impacts of zoos exist.

This is how smart misinformation works; use leading language and selective quotes to make the viewers think you said something you didn't, so you can always go, "Oh, but I never SAID the breeding programs don't work, or that the funding isn't important!"

[-] pimento64@sopuli.xyz 1 points 11 months ago

You forgot to switch sockpuppets. Also you didn't notice that I'm not the same user as the other one. Stunning powers of observation on display here.

[-] gyrfalcon@beehaw.org 4 points 11 months ago

Not sure what you are talking about with the sockpuppets bit, but please try to be polite when someone confuses you for another user in the thread. It's a simple mistake and there's no need to be mean about it. Thanks!

[-] Devi@beehaw.org 1 points 11 months ago

They typically lay around because they are depressed or tired.

That's quite an uneducated viewpoint. Most animals (including us) move a very small part of the day. Finding food, finding mates, etc. Lions will sleep or rest for 21 hours a day. Their active hours tend to be dawn and dusk.

Beyond that, Nobody is physically poking any animals, that's not how zoos work. As someone who worked at a zoo bad behaviour is rare, it happens, but it's dealt with.

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

From the original article

Similarly, an analysis of scientific papers published by AZA member institutions from 1993 to 2013 found that only 7 percent were related to biodiversity conservation.

[...]

On the contrary, most people don’t read the educational plaques at zoos, and according to polls of zoo-goers, most go to spend time with friends or family — to enjoy themselves and be entertained, not to learn about animals and their needs. One study found the level of environmental concern reported by attendees before they entered the zoo was similar to those who were polled at the exits.

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

You fell for the rhetorical trick in the first quote. Biodiversity is one tiny aspect of conservation, but they hoped you would conflate that with just meaning the rest aren't about conservation at all. Researching medicine needed to treat animals is conservation, but has nothing to do with biodiversity, as an example.

The article is full of bad-faith interpretations like this.

I didn't talk about people going for education by reading placards, I talked about people experiencing humanization of the animals by seeing them in person.

One study also showed a link between vaccines and autism. There is a study out there for any claim you want to make: reproducing the outcome (and showing a cause) in future studies makes an actual point.

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The study of zoo research output looked at how article were tagged. The conservation tag was biodiversity conservation...

I don't see much point in continuing this conversation. Further, from other responses it appears you are fairly willing to attack other users in comments for trivial things and I would prefer not to be on the receiving end of that

[-] Sina@beehaw.org 4 points 11 months ago

In this world actually, but not all Zoos are the same. Our local Zoo has breeding programs shared with various German zoos & they are always very ecstatic, when babies are born (which happens very often), even though the Zoo itself is going to quickly lose them to other Zoos & release programs.

[-] autotldr 1 points 11 months ago

🤖 I'm a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:

Click here to see the summary

An examination of how zoos spend their money suggests that, despite branding themselves as champions of conservation, they devote far more resources to their main, original prerogative: confining animals for entertainment and profit.

There are some exceptions, Marris notes, in which zoos have played a starring role in reintroducing threatened and endangered species to the wild, including the California condor, the Arabian oryx, and Black-footed ferrets, among others.

Mileham told Vox captive breeding programs at zoos do more than just create insurance populations, and that they contribute to field conservation by providing opportunities for researchers to learn about species’ behavior, nutrition, veterinary needs, and more.

While the educational value of zoos is dubious, there’s certainly one message zoo-goers receive, if only implicitly: That it’s perfectly fine, even good, to put wild animals on display in tiny enclosures for the public’s leisure.

But there’s also this: One-third of Earth’s habitable land is devoted to cattle grazing and growing corn and soy to feed farmed animals, which has resulted in mass habitat loss for wildlife and crashing biodiversity levels.

Fashion designers are replacing leather and fur with animal-free textiles, meat companies are now selling plant-based nuggets and burgers, and in 2018, the traveling circus Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey announced it would stop using animals, such as lions, tigers, and bears, in its shows.

Saved 90% of original text.

[+] storksforlegs@beehaw.org 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

[deleted]

[-] storksforlegs@beehaw.org 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

There is also the conservation role of zoos as a way for the general public to appreciate and experience nature. I mean as corny as it sounds getting to see animals that need protection face to face is also a pretty important when it comes to conservation. It makes an impression on kids, especially, who will grow up wanting to work in conservation etc.

I think the article's emphasis on more humane zoos is important, but most modern zoos already try to do this as much as possible.

Environment