this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2025
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You Should Know

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Denaturalization goes through civil courts and requires only "Clear and convincing evidence" which is a lower standard than "Beyond reasonable doubt"

Excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Loss_of_nationality

The process of denaturalization is a legal procedure which results in nullifying nationality. Based upon the 1943 Supreme Court decision of Schneiderman v. United States, clear and convincing evidence must be evaluated in processing a denaturalization action. United States Attorneys for the district in which a defendant resides bring suit in the jurisdiction's Federal District Court. Juries are typically not present and the defendant may be compelled to testify. Failure to testify may result in a presumption of guilt, though defendants can plead against self-incrimination. The standard of proof is not reasonable doubt, but rather clear, convincing, and unequivocal evidence. Decisions may be appealed in federal appellate courts and the Supreme Court. Once the legal process has concluded, the Department of State issues a Certificate of Loss of Nationality.

Standards of Proof in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(law)#Clear_and_convincing_evidence

Excerpt:

Clear and convincing proof means that the evidence presented by a party during the trial must be highly and substantially more probable to be true than not and the trier of fact must have a firm belief or conviction in its factuality. In this standard, a greater degree of believability must be met than the common standard of proof in civil actions (i.e. preponderance of the evidence), which only requires that the facts as a threshold be more likely than not to prove the issue for which they are asserted.

Why YSK: If you are a naturalized US citizen, you might want to reconsider if you want to protest and ending up being another Mahmoud Khalil. (Not saying to not protest, just informing you of the risks so you can decide for youself if its worth it or not).

And if you aren't a naturalized US citizen; Why YSK: So you understand that the risks of protesting is higher than the risks of natural-born US Citizens protesting, so I hope you don't judge them too harshly for not protesting.

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[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 121 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I'm not even convinced that the Trump admin wouldn't try to use denaturalization upon natural-born citizens and/or deport them for specious reasons.

They do not respect the rule or even the spirit of the law. Finding new and creative ways to interpret statutes is practically a sport to them.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 38 points 4 days ago (3 children)

At this point I almost wouldn't mind being deported, if they sent me back to where my ancestors came from (Germany/Poland). Of course, what would actually happen would be getting shipped to that hole in El Salvador instead.

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 4 days ago (1 children)

if they sent me back to where my ancestors came from (Germany/Poland)

Do you have citizenship in those countries?

Because you might want to learn about statelessness

I'm not sure if you would get citizenship in those countries just because the US is being autocratic.

My situation tho: I was born in PRC so I had citizenship in China, but, the moment I obtained US Citizenship, according to PRC law, my PRC citizenship is automatically revoked.

So if the US denaturalizes me, I'm so fucked lol. (Not to mention, my anti-CCP speech in the US isn't gonna go well with pooh bear 👀)

[–] grue@lemmy.world 23 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I mean, if the US stripped my citizenship and deported me to Germany or Poland, obviously I'd be a refugee at that point.

But again, it wouldn't ever get to that point because Trump's ICE gestapo wouldn't give a shit about what would be best for me and would make deliberately punitive decisions about what to do with me instead.

Ditto for you, probably: you wouldn't be headed to China; you'd be headed to CECOT too.

you wouldn’t be headed to China; you’d be headed to CECOT too.

Same gulag, different flag.

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[–] 4oreman@lemy.lol 8 points 4 days ago (4 children)

ok but its litterally a war crime to take away someones citizenship if they only have one

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 16 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Trump is detaining European tourists in ICE camps for weeks for the "crime" of holding an incorrect visa (as determined by ICE for volunteering to do chores while staying with a host family).

I don't think he cares too much about committing war crimes. He hired Hegseth specifically because he's a loyalist who's happy to commit war crimes. The fascists are in charge, and cruelty is the point.

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[–] Sibilantjoe@lemmy.world 51 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You should probably include the actual grounds for denaturalization in your post, not just the standard of proof:

the Nationality Act retained as possible causes of denaturalization, treason, sedition, or conspiring against the United States; employment as an official with policy-making authority of a foreign government; and voluntary renunciation...Fraud, committed in conjunction with an application for naturalization can also make nationality voidable.

[–] Fredselfish@lemmy.world 15 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Then both Trump and Musk should lose their citizenship?

[–] flippinfreebird@lemmy.today 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I don't think they can do so for Trump, as he's born a citizen (on US soil), but that would be possible for Musk.

(on US soil)

A person born to a US Citizen parent anywhere in the world is also a natural-born US citizen, so this mean Ted Cruz, and ironically, the whole "Birthergate" racist conspiracy theory didn't matter at all, since Barack Obama's Mother was a US Citizen, so he would still be eligible to become the US president even if he was born in Kenya.

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[–] FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 51 points 4 days ago (2 children)

The US is one of the only countries on earth where you have to pay ~3’000 USD in fees to lose the citizenship. Ridiculous.

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 22 points 4 days ago (1 children)

🤣

Or just move to some EU country and just refuse to pay your US taxes, what are they gonna do, arrest you? 😉

[–] FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 26 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (3 children)

Coincidentally the US is also one of the few countries that taxes its citizens who live abroad. So they get double taxed. Both by the US govt and the country they live in.

Or just move to some EU country and just refuse to pay your US taxes, what are they gonna do, arrest you? 😉

Most American citizens have family (like their parents) in the country. If they don’t pay taxes they would be arrested when visiting the US to see their parents on their deathbeds. Or situations like that. Not great.

[–] CrazyLikeGollum@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Technically, it's not true double taxation, as you can deduct the taxes you paid in your host country from your American income tax.

It's still shitty, but you ultimately only wind up paying the greater amount of the two tax rates.

[–] genevieve@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Tax treaties exist between the US and many countries, primarily in Western Europe, to reduce double taxation.

[–] Cort@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago (1 children)

And the US has a spotless record when it comes to honoring treaties right? Right?

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But even if you pay the tax to renounce citizenship, you could still get detained by ICE anyways, so what's the point. Just burn the bridge and never visit the US again.

[–] mic_check_one_two@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 4 days ago (6 children)

It’s way worse than that; You have to pay income tax on your entire net worth when you renounce your citizenship. Basically, they say that when you renounce your citizenship, all of your assets are considered “sold” so you need to pay tax on it. The US also requires you to keep paying income taxes for a decade after you have renounced your citizenship. There was a big push around the 2008 crash, where congress became concerned that people would renounce their citizenship to dodge taxes. So they started making laws that required taxes to be paid even after expatriating.

Imagine moving to Germany and renouncing your citizenship, and you’re still paying income tax in America, for the income you made while in Germany.

[–] endeavor@sopuli.xyz 1 points 2 days ago

Not to mention when you are an US citizen, you have to pay taxes to us even if you have never even been to us. Green card and the american dream are the biggest scams an immigrant can fall for.

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[–] CidVicious@sh.itjust.works 20 points 3 days ago (10 children)

Worth noting that it's against international law to leave a person stateless.

[–] drascus@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 days ago

Umm what is the international police going to come and arrest trump? Do you actually think anyone in this government gives a shit about international law?

[–] ameancow@lemmy.world 19 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

I find it charming when people cite "international law" as if it's really a thing.

Our species is really stuck on the idea that "somebody will do something" and it's just a matter of evidence or a strong enough case.

Sorry, nobody is coming, international law exists only as a wink and a nod between players who want to get something out of each other.

[–] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Laws are threats by those with power to enforce them. The UN will not threaten the US under any circumstance in any meaningful way. So for them to decide something is illegal is meaningless and, quite literally, of no consequence.

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[–] BlackSheep@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 days ago (2 children)

You need to read history. Read about the French and Russian revolutions. People DID do something! They stormed the government. They didn’t wait for “someone” to save them. They didn’t wait for other countries to “save them”.

[–] ECB@feddit.org 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I'm genuinely confused how you think that these two examples of internal uprisings are at all connected to someone saying effectively "don't count on international law to mean anything since there isn't any body to enforce it"

[–] ameancow@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

There are some dense, odd people on lemmy as well as any other online platform.

[–] ameancow@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I am genuinely confused how you think your stories about internal revolutions has anything to do with the idea of "international law" being a thing or not. If you want to go do a revolution, just go do a revolution, it's very adjacent to the point being discussed here.

Go along now slugger, go! get! shoo!

[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

Is the US administration aware that there are international laws? And if so does it care? It doesn't seem to care much about the local ones.

[–] endeavor@sopuli.xyz 3 points 2 days ago

International law at worst is just gonna slap some sanctions on us, which is something the current admin is already doing every other day.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 2 points 2 days ago

what does international law say about taking over a few foreign countries and a canal or so?

[–] diffusive@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Except that countries like Canada has laws that makes it possible to happen

I would be curious to read a reference to that… not that any country cares just they history on how they agreed on something like that

[–] Lemminary@lemmy.world 9 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I wonder if the Trump administration would follow international law seeing how they're openly defying court rules.

[–] FireTower@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

America and Americans broadly do not respect "international law" as an idea. We don't vote for representatives in a UN House of Reps or UN Senate. And if we did why would we wish to be beholden to a majority rules vote when that majority combined might be inferior militarily.

America tolerates international law when it doesn't interfere with our course.

The idea of a "one world government" is treated as a fringe tin hat conspiracy theory nonsense that no one is advocating for.

[–] CidVicious@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 days ago

There's certainly no guarantee.

[–] Peck@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

What law? Nobody cares about any international "laws" unless they can benefit from them and enforce them in some way.

[–] GoodOleAmerika@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

What law - Trump

[–] SplashJackson@lemmy.ca 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Lol bring me your huddled masses

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 18 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, so that I may destroy them once and for all.

I went to the statue of liberty once and I got the special coin thiny with that thing written on it. It felt so cool. (I lost it 😓, but still, it was cool when I had it)

Now I look at the statue and it makes me feel depressed.

Reminds of the the Man in the High Castle TV series promotional poster thing:

(Its not actually in the show, just a promotional poster)

Great TV Show btw, go watch it, it is very depressing but it's worth watching to see just how fucked up the world could look like. "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing"

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)

This is more a reason to protest to me. If I can lose my citizenship by excersising my rights I rather do it sooner than later.

[–] endeavor@sopuli.xyz 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Better to do it before the whole death camp and death squad infrastructure is up and running. Also not a joke, you will get that before the end of the year.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 1 points 2 days ago

he definitely cannot allow midterm elections happening. I really don't get how judges and congressmen, even if they are republican, cannot see whats in the cards for them on the current track.

[–] Gladaed@feddit.org 3 points 3 days ago

To be fair: Beyond reasonable doubt is the highest certainty.

It is probably impossible to achieve that for some of the things you might justifiably deport someone.

The clear and convincing proof part is also plainly ignored, so that's not the issue. The issue is a government that will execute its agenda no matter the law. You cannot stop that within the law as it is void.

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