this post was submitted on 10 Jun 2025
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Politics

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33
Real paper ballots are a must: N.Y. needs to get rid of touchscreen voting machines (www.nydailynews.com)
submitted 2 days ago by PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat to c/politics@beehaw.org
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[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 10 hours ago

The German constitutional court declared voting machines unconstitutional for the simple reason that they don't allow people with just an ordinary education, no specialist knowledge, to ascertain for themselves that the vote is kosher.

The CCC actually tried to get them outlawed based on technical grounds, including that it's impossible to have electronic voting that is both secure and private ("can't prove to the Mafia boss how you voted" type of private), the judges listened intendedly and asked many smart questions, just to then turn around and say "yeah we barely understood that and we're practically all professors and it's our job, can't expect J. Random Citizen to do that between shifts".

[–] Arkham@beehaw.org 3 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

I'm in one of the states that does all mail-in paper ballots. The idea of going to a centralized location to vote on an electronic touch screen ironically seems antiquated to me. Using a screen feels like barely a step away from the punch hole ballots my parents voted with when I was a kid.

[–] SteevyT@beehaw.org 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I like the way my area does it. Electronic machine, prints an easily human readable ballot that you then review and physically turn in. Only change I'd be tempted to make would be if it printed a copy for you to keep, but I can think of issues with that idea.

[–] pupbiru@aussie.zone 2 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

yeah you can’t have a ballot that someone else can force you to keep to prove how you’ve voted… anonymous, individual, untraceable ballots are essential

though perhaps that’s could be mitigated if you could print as many ballots/receipts as you like so you can submit your real one and keep a fake one… then anyone with no care can keep their real one, and anyone being coerced can keep a fake one

i totally agree this is the way to do it: the machines can even keep tallys for early results reporting, but the paper ballots are the only thing that actually matters. that would make subverting the electronic systems useless. it’d also be a good sanity check on the count

[–] SteevyT@beehaw.org 1 points 11 hours ago

Well, your hypothetical is more realistic than my hypothetical. I just didn't want my voting record in my home with the way things are currently going just in case. I didn't even think of coercion.

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 2 points 1 day ago

The Netherlands use to have voting machines, yet they were replaced by God old paper in 2009.

[–] Geodad@beehaw.org 9 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I'm inclined to agree. It will take longer to count them, but you can't easily hack paper ballots.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Germany, with 100% paper ballots, has preliminary results in by the end of the night. That's preliminary as in "everything has been counted, but we haven't double-checked anything yet". The final result comes later and has never differed in even close to significant ways from the preliminary one. Most of the time delay is not due to voting but to give people and courts time to deal with any challenge there might be.

[–] Geodad@beehaw.org 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

The US is a whole lot bigger than Germany though. Each state administers their own election also. There's no unified system or framework that they all have to follow, and if one was attempted to be forced upon them, they'd cry "states rights" and challenge it in court.

This country truly is due for a reset.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 5 hours ago

What if I told you that Germany is a federation. NRW would be the fifth largest US state, Bremen the third smallest (actually, almost identical population to DC), most of all the US has more states. They can do stuff in parallel that's no excuse to not have quick election results. And now don't come with "but there's so much space in between" you're not sending the results via horse buggy are you.

And, no, of course the federation doesn't legislate on state elections. It gets to say how federal (and EU) elections are run. State's rights my ass in Germany the federation has no tax office, it's all collected by the states, and their police can't put boots on the ground outside of international borders (incl. airports) and the train system (cf Amtrak cops). Certainly can't just decide to invade a city like is happening in LA. They also don't have anything like ICE, that's all state responsibility.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Pretty much every modern election system tabulates the ballots electronically, but keeps around the paper ballots for random recounts or investigations. The only reason not to have the paper involved is if you're cheap / incompetent / don't care about election security, or if you specifically want to steal the election.

[–] Geodad@beehaw.org 4 points 2 days ago

The Republican Party is all of those.

[–] Midnitte@beehaw.org 6 points 1 day ago

NJ seems like it has a good system - prints out a paper ballot, and it's immediately scanned to be cast.

Now if only they'd make it print quicker....