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The whole thread is mostly on semantics of firearms and their presence. Does it really matter if the National Guard was issued pink polka-dot pogo sticks instead?
It is still a military force present on civilian soil, which is in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act in the way they did it. The Federal government continues to violate its own laws, as well as the Constitution. The core issue of everything going on right now.
The whole thread is mostly on semantics of firearms and their presence.
I've found this to be pretty much any article that even tangentially relates to firearms. Gun nuts will never leave semantics and have an actual discussion.
I've increasingly noticed that Lemmy has a LOT of gun nuts. The "Kids who grew up playing call of duty and want to make like Swayze and scream 'wildcats'" crowd make sense since that is an increasing number of progressives and internet leftists.
But I've increasingly noticed the other flavor of "moderate" who are rabidly guns' rights activists but who also are adamant that nobody is allowed to criticize the military and doing so is going to let the fascists win. And... I am increasingly noticing them coming from the sh.itjust.works instance. This thread used to be crossposted to their /c/conservative? Not sure if it still is and I just don't understand UIs. And yesterday their /c/politics mod went batshit insane over people not standing for the pledge or whatever and was banning anyone who wouldn't tell (let's be real) him what state they live in.
Never noticed anything too bad from them in the past but they are rapidly getting to dot ml levels of crazy and might even reach dot hexbear if this keeps up.
The internet has a lot of gun nuts, and they are scared of everything.
What is a weapon for, if not to allay fear?
I mean, the majority of guns are for shooting and killing human beings. That’s pretty much what they were invented for.
Yes but these are the talking points the NRA give out that "liberal gun owners" also start regurgitating. The idea that their Emotional Support Assault Rifle (ESAR for short) is safe and important because it isn't the standard issue weapon of the US military.
Its why you see so much "an M4 is not an AR-15" stupidity (that firearms experts and "guntube" continue to call idiotic). Which is an outright lie because the M4 (and M16 before it) is literally a military designation for a specific configuration of the AR-15 platform (actually a family of designations because M4A1, M4A2, etc). Pretending that it somehow stops being an AR-15 because it has select fire capabilities is like pretending it stops being an AR-15 once you put an optic on it.
And a lot of that boils down to one of the biggest poison pills in what little gun control the US has (which I'll refer to as the NFA for shorthand). The idea that the big danger of privately owned firearms is automatic fire is an outright lie when militaries around the world actively discourage soldiers from using automatic fire on anything but a machine gun (and said machine gunners are trained to fire in very controlled bursts, if not single shots, even when suppressing an enemy position...).
And it is especially hilarious because most modern ESARs are based on weapons systems that were specifically designed for military use and where re-enabling the holy automatic fire is the work of a dremel and a trip to the hardware store.
As a tangent. Funny enough, the past decade or so has seen a very large rise in Emotional Support guns that are actively NOT suitable for any modern combat (still great for slaughtering kindergartners though).
The rising cost of intermediate ammunition (e.g. 5.56/.223) because everyone panic buys it every time the world catches on fire has led to a huge rise in "pistol caliber carbines" which are just military rifle platforms (e.g. the AR-15) but chambered for handgun ammo. So... reinventing submachine guns but with the appropriate attachment points for all the tacticool shit.
And then you have the Keltec Specials which are borderline novelty guns designed to get some publicity at a convention and then be sold to rich people and folk who need an ESAR but cheaper. The "joke" being that if you got one of those designers even slightly drunk they would outright say that anyone who thinks those will hold up under even slightly adverse conditions is a moron.
Emotional Support Assault Rifles?
Also, isn't the M4A1 an improvement on the M16 (which is based on the AR15 platform)?
I'd argue the M4A1 is a /great/ firearm. Are there other ARs that have better features? Yes. Have I shot an M4A1 in combat? Nope. But I have shot an M4A1. Compared to other rifles I've shot (OK this is limited), the M4A1 just feels good to shoot. It's not painful, it's pretty damn accurate, and you can add stuff to make it really fit you. It is pretty good for medium, medium-long shooting.
Also, I don't know why people buy automatic rifles. It's not accurate, and if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to cause damage to the gun. Semi-auto single fire/burst is where it's at because when you fire a gun, you want to hit what you're intending to hit.
OK, now the reason I'm replying. If you asked me five years ago if firearms are necessary, I'd have said no. It's great fun but wholly unnecessary. I have since changed my opinion.
The federal government is supposed to protect us from tyrannical state governments. The state government is supposed to protect us from tyrannical federal governments through militias. The issue is, a lot of states don't have an official state militia outside of the National Guard (note: if you're not authorized by the state you're not a militia, you're a terrorist group). With the current federal government taking control of the state militia (national guard) to use against the states, we're reaching a time where either the state-only militias need to do something because this breaks MANY laws or we actually need to defend ourselves.
I oppose outright banning AR-15 and derivatives. While they won't stop a tank from destroying your neighborhood, or a bomber from taking out your neighborhood, they are a deterrent if we start exercising our 2a right against non-uniformed people kidnapping the citizens off the street. I think the states should allow it, and the states should highly regulate these guns.
My understanding is the M4 is a carbine length instead of a full rifle. While the M16 is the full length version that came first. Note the 16 vs the 4, since the US started the category numbering system, there had been 16 different rifles (starting with the M1 Garand) while only having 4 carbines.
Yes. Let's disarm ourselves while a fascist gov is running things.
You're the equivalent of "thoughts and prayers" from repubs.
Yeah, but the M4 is really good at it
Under the rules of engagement, deadly force is authorized only “upon reasonable belief of an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm,” one of the defense officials said.
So, they strip you of your constitution rights and if you show anything other than submissiveness, that will be enough for them to feel threatened.
That's all police in a nutshell.
If you attack someone aggressively enough, there’s a probability they’ll instinctively fight back—and fighting back could cause serious bodily harm to the attacker.
So as soon as you decide to attack an unsuspecting person, you could conclude that there’s an immanent risk of bodily harm to yourself before they’ve even reacted.
I don't care what weapons they have, they ARE NOT TO BE USED AGAINST AMERICANS. The constitution is very clear on this, but the administration hates the constitution. Plain and simple these troops being sent out are illegal orders and hopefully the servicemen and women obey their oath to the constitution and do not report for duty.
Don't worry,, he'll make sure all the shot people stop being citizens after the fact.
They are not for civilian hunters
Ohhh, sorry OP. I think M4s are specifically designed for civilian hunters. They seem very useful when hunting them.
(Jokes are my coping mechanism 💜)
If I'm not mistaken, the M17 is military name for the SIG P320... the one that likes to go bang whenever it feels like it, regardless of what the person holding (or not holding) it wants.
That's fine... This is fine.
P320 is M17, shorter barrel is named M18. I suspect that just like USAF, the NGs use mostly M18 which were cleared from possible malfunctions except that they wear down from use too quickly for heavy use.
AR-15s ARE weapons of war. They (more specifically the AR-10 which was more or less refined based on feedback into the AR-15) were specifically made to meet general calls by militaries around the world with the intent of becoming the standard issue infantry weapon for as many armies as possible. The focus on automatic fire (especially in the NFA...) is particularly disingenuous as the vast majority of militaries "strongly discourage" troops from ever firing in anything other than semi automatic because it is a waste of ammunition.
The problem isn't that we have jackbooted thugs who are armed with weapons that they can't get from a local walmart.
Also, just pure pedantry but: M4s ARE AR-15s.
Huh? Is the National Guard issued some special version of the M4 without select fire? Wouldn’t the standard version be automatic? I feel like the term semi automatic is incorrect here.
Also, M4s are AR-15s.
Fully Automatic does should a little more aggressive, as it is much more aggressive. Can't have facts in the media anymore.
I want to know if they are being issued ammo.
The National Guard? If they are given a gun by logistics then they are being given ammo. This isn't Enemy at the Gates (or VERY specific and isolated cases on the Eastern Front of WW2). So expect LOTS of discount green tips on the East coast in the near future.
The deputized proud boys? They just bring their own.
It has been a pretty common thing for the national guard to be deployed domestically with weapons but no ammo, or with ammo on their person but not loaded into their weapons, so it's a valid question.
Not correct. NG has levels of escalation they use that determines what kind of equipment they carry. This can vary from not being armed, to carrying rifles with no magazines, empty magazines, loaded magazines with no rounds chambered, up to full combat readiness. I've had conversations with NG and former active duty combat guys I work with specifically about this, some of them with a lot of experience and rank.
Not to support their deployment in our cities or use as a weapon against our people for exercising their rights, just correcting misinformation. Of the ones I still interact with and trust, they don't support this shit either.
Can someone explain to me who these people are? What were they doing before they've been ordered to DC? Are they a standing army, training while they're not ordered somewhere? Or are they reservists? Or police from elsewhere?
Basically reservists, the National Guard is brought up under control of the states/feds for emergencies/disasters. Generally you'd see them building flood levees or rescuing people in hurricanes or (occasionally) shooting college students in the '70s. They're not really designed for peace time occupation but the admin's gotta find jack boots somewhere.
The National Guard are the remnants of the militias that the US used to depend on and that the second amendment was actually about. The idea of civilians with military training who can be raised in times of great need and... what many (most?) Global North countries have as their default.
Many of them are former active duty military (e.g. The Army) who wanted to keep pulling an extra paycheck and benefits after becoming civilians. Others are just dumbasses who got tricked by the "Just spend two weekends out of the year training and you too can have an ice sword that kills dragons" nonsense.
Their actual role is... questionable. Sometimes they get pulled in to help with natural disasters but they have no meaningful training outside of holding guns to scare people and maybe building sandbag walls. According to a climbing buddy who had to interface with them back during Hurricane Katrina... they actively made everything worse and got in the way constantly and she had to unofficially allocate resources to protect the Guard that could have otherwise been spent helping rescue those in need. But, Support The Troops(TM) and all that. Back in uni, they were the jackboots who were called out any time people "rioted" (theoretically because a sports team lost or it was Spring Break. Mostly because kids started protesting) and their job was to look intimidating and bully/beat on anyone who was out past curfew.
A not insignificant number were also sent to Iraq/Afghanistan when the US Military realized they couldn't keep stop-lossing everyone who was dumb enough to sign up for the Military proper.
In their day to day civilian life? They are basically just normal people. Some work in tech, others food service, and MANY are small town cops because that also lets them carry a gun. The key unifying factor is they all will act like they are heroic veterans who killed fiddy men and make damned sure to flaunt their military credentials to board planes faster or to get a discount at the hardware store.
Like a lot of things modern military, it is worth looking at the Invasion of Ukraine. The professional soldiers (former standing military and PMCs from around the world) make up the forces that actually take ground or are deployed for operations where skill and discipline are needed. The civilian population that were conscripted and given a gun man the trenches because all that is really needed there are bodies to send bullets down range and soak up the ones coming back at them.
The National Guard are very much the latter.
Well ofc... The state doesn't violently control people with nerf guns.
The M4, and other assault rifles, are not legal for civilian use.
Well...they're legal, but unlike with semi-auto rifles, you need a license
an FFL
and the federal government isn't required to give you one. You can find plenty of YouTube footage of people shooting legally-owned automatic weapons.
You don't need an FFL, it's a 200 dollar tax stamp, some lengthy background checks, and you have to find one made before 1986 owned by someone who's willing to sell it to you.
You can kind of get around that by getting an FFL to acquire post-1986 machine guns, but that comes with its own red tape, and you can basically only get them for your business as a gun shop. If you close up shop, you gotta get rid of the new machine guns.
Armed military trash pickup patrol. What a fine use of taxpayer dollars, bravo.
Fuck these soldier bums too for not resisting. I’m fully aware of the consequences of resisting but I don’t care. These are people who are putting guns on their own citizens. Fuck them.
"Powerful M4"
Just... Like, the M4 is a Carbine. Don't tell me it's not an AR-15. That's like saying a Chrysler Neon is not a Dodge Neon. Most M4s don't have full auto.
There is some nomenclature problem with the article and general public by in large. The M4 designation is specifically a military thing. And all the ones assigned in the military may shoot the same ammo we do as civilians, their M4s have three round burst and full auto. While not "more powerful" I would argue they are more deadly especially to dense crowds. You but something labeled an M4 as an American citizen, you can even get ones with full auto if you pay and wait. But regardless what they call them, if an Ar-15 style weapon is sold on the civilian market it is not an M4.
They're only repeating the technical-sounding terms they have heard over and over again in other news reports about firearms without really understanding what they mean.
And because these reports they've based their limited understanding on were majoritarily about gun violence perpetrated with civilian rifles, they don't understand how to talk about actually military firearms.
These news reporters have downright behaved like generative AI.