This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
!feminism@beehaw.org
!askmen@lemmy.world
!mensmentalhealth@lemmy.world
It's because SK men have become incredibly conservative in the recent generation while SK women now want the non-traditional norms of respect and personal freedom. Conservative ideas forcing people to be something they don't want to be is causing a rift. Authoritarians continue to fuck up shit.
It's because SK men have become incredibly conservative in the recent generation
They were always this way... I don't blame the women for opting out, the clownregime expects them to work full time while having kids with no socioeconomic support while dealing with an "alpha" male at home.
The regime and these cucks will need to do something.
This was an amazingly frustrating ride, what the heck. I feel like somebody punched me in the gut then set me on a rollercoaster that went underwater or something.
I don't even know where to start. I always kinda assumed feminism was a kinda good movement because women want rights and also conveniently it can be used to distract people from class war issues, which is why it's pushed by the media.
But South Korea ... what the actual fuck. What the actual fuck, i'm speechless.
Do these people not see people as people? How can you focus so much on someone's sex/gender. Where is the fairness in this?
but to stay constructive ... i assume that the fact that people work so much kinda exhausts them and tires them out emotionally, which is why people cut back on dating (because they're too exhausted for that), and suddenly you have a whole lot of guys saying "hey, why don't we get female attention"?
Where is the fairness in 18 months of compulsory national service for men only ?
You say this like a gotcha, but was this difference missed by women or was it imposed by men? Men treating women differently also results in unfair treatment of men.
Regardless of who caused it, reform is being blocked by the Christian lobby. Of COURSE it's the fucking religion nutcases
Was propoganda a factor there?
Funny how, when women are unhappy, they're told they're too emotional, need therapy, need medication, need to work on themselves. And when men are unhappy, it's someone else's fault.
when women are unhappy, they’re told they’re too emotional, need therapy, need medication, need to work on themselves.
This is a refrain I've heard pretty consistently directed at men.
No no, when men become unhappy, it’s “because they’re incels”
As a man, I have experienced the exact opposite.
When I have seen women unhappy, entire communities have come together to help them. White knights, in particular, fall all over themselves to help her.
When I have seen men unhappy, it’s invariably accompanied by women saying, “so fucking what? Man up, you baby.”
Sure, those men who understand how to help also reach out to assist unhappy men. But they do their best to avoid doing so in the presence of women, otherwise that “un-manliness” gets infected over to them as well like a miasma, and news of that percolates throughout the wider social group. It never ends well for any man who visibly assists, unless they’re wearing a uniform in an official capacity.
Maybe you need different friends. I certainly don’t get that reaction from my social group.
Maybe you need different friends.
Removing all women from my social sphere seems to be just a little bit extreme…
But they do their best to avoid doing so in the presence of women, otherwise that “un-manliness” gets infected over to them as well like a miasma, and news of that percolates throughout the wider social group.
Where the fuck do you live, Afghanistan?
"Women get whatever they want", "white knights", "men can only help other men behind the scenes, otherwise people start avoiding them" - honestly, that sounds like toxic manosphere shit.
"Women get whatever they want", "white knights", "men can only help other men behind the scenes, otherwise people start avoiding them" - honestly, that sounds like toxic manosphere shit.
Direct observation of interpersonal interactions in the community at large can be one hell of a superpower for anyone dedicated to evidence and facts. It’s why I prefer it, myself.
And you can do better than strawman attacks and claiming things I never said. Or will you double down and let fly with a full-on ad hominem next? You already came close with that last bullshit line.
Can you provide some evidence and facts to back up your statements?
Ah, an angry, argumentative pseudo-intellectual. I don't think further conversation with you will add anything to my life, so I'm blocking you now. Goodbye.
Ah, an angry, argumentative pseudo-intellectual. I don't think further conversation with you will add anything to my life, so I'm blocking you now. Goodbye.
Now THAT is a proper, intellectually bankrupt ad hominem.
You really have nothing anvailable, other than personal attacks, do you? Feelings before facts, I suppose -- it fits the pattern.
Yeah, "white knight" is usually a dead giveaway.
Yeah, "white knight" is usually a dead giveaway.
How so? Especially since the term has been in common use since the 17th century. That’s a good 400+ years, now.
I can't tell if this is bad faith or hopelessly misguided. The historical use of "white knight" (a folkloric or literary trope) has nothing to do with the usage you used here.
People who use it as you used it, in my experience, usually have a "manospheric" pespective on gender interactions, with an assumption of combatitive, winners and losers based behaviour from both sides.
Where the fuck do you live, Afghanistan?
Nope. North America. It’s where this is most frequently seen.
In fact, men supporting men is a lot better in Islam than it is in western culture. You can hug other men and talk about insecurities with each other far more freely there. It’s homosexuality, specifically, that they have an issue with.
Maybe you should move to Afghanistan? Your community sounds fucked beyond belief. And I can assure it isn't the norm in most parts of the world.
Maybe you should move to Afghanistan?
I’m not responsible for the anti-male gender bigotries that others hold.
As an egalitarianist I’ll call it out when I have the opportunity to do so, but I’m staying right where I am, thanks.
What a hero.
Who tells this to women?
Do you have a link to news article suggesting something like this?
Men in America have for decades
All men?
Enough to create the culture is all it takes. Being here I would hope that you understand we do this to each other too
People in US can pick and chose their culture.
Are women not allowed to choose the men in their lives?
Not really, can't choose your family. And your ability to relocate jobs, community, or even out of relationships can be restricted by income.
And trying to change our culture is often met with reactionary backlash. I don't know if you've looked into Edward Bernays but the state of gender relations started bad here by default and was made institutionally disastrous by our government. It actually is baked in to our culture just to be shitty to women and others who don't meet specific ideals.
Ok some women grew up in households with loser men in charge and useless moms.
What would you estimate % of such households is?
I don't know, don't really need a number personally. I know I grew up with bad male figures and I know women who had bad male figures including my mother and aunts.
If you made me guess I'd say 90% just based on the number of women who have disclosed to me something fucked up happening to them. Don't think you can verify that number though because people don't exactly report their families. None that I know did.
Are you actually interested in any of this? It's strongly tied to men's liberation but I get the feeling you might be coming at this from a "which gender is worse" angle.
This is not women v men discussion. I am trying to understand how some men's poor behaviour is being used to suggest that this is the norm.
This is not my personal experience. That's now how women in my life were raised. They don't tolerate loser men to any degree.
Picking a good partner is likely the most important decision any person can make. So even if you come from bad background, it is still on you to make the right choices. That's how systematic change happens.
Oh! Glad to hear it. I fall for sealioning a lot so I was afraid I did it again.
It sounds like the people in your life had good upbringing and social support. I suppose for perspective I grew up in a place where that's uncommon. I'm glad people are safe to be themselves around you.
Picking a good partner is a huge thing but there are factors that effect that. Like children who are abused or neglected will be vulnerable to abusers when they're older. Also abusers are proficient at hiding themselves until they have a potential victim in a vulnerable position. I suppose the reason there's such a strong outcry to change our culture here is because it has made ideal conditions for men to become abusers to women and to each other without recourse. The ones who do get punished are ones that just failed their stealth check to misuse power within what our culture considers acceptable.
Also abusers are proficient at hiding themselves until they have a potential victim in a vulnerable positio
Correct and that's why good parenting is key. And if somebody'a parents don't teach these skills, than either that person has to do it on their own or fall into the cycle of abuse.
I suppose the reason there's such a strong outcry to change our culture here is because it has made ideal conditions for men to become abusers to women and to each other without recourse.
These people won't be fixed, they must be avoided. Hence why my point above about partners. By the time somebody is in an abusing dynamic, it is already top late.
The ones who do get punished are ones that just failed their stealth check to misuse power within what our culture considers acceptable.
We literally got rich pedophiles getting away with child rape for decades and FBI is protecting them from justice. Only loser men get in trouble it seems and only sometimes. Can't rely on the system or society on such things. I have lost any faith in the system.
People should be taught to help themselves first and for most. Then help people around them whenever they can. The best one can hope from the system is to not get fucked by it.
That's kind of a component of the problem though: everybody thinks that they're parenting good and you may be able to teach them other things but usually you can't tell them how to raise their children. There's, just like a cognitive resistance to that. Some sort of cultural narcissism about the very act of parenting.
I don't think anyone thinks you shouldn't avoid abusers. Everyone's already doing our best. If it was something that can be done on an individual level or simply being raised right, they wouldn't be a problem. You should read into the concept of "whisper networks" though. They're a flawed tool but they're sadly the most effective systemic solution for some women to avoid predatory men. They kind of fail outside of that specific dynamic though
I worry your final sentiment there is a trap. We men are dying because we're trying to navigate this alone. We need to be there for another and teach another how to break this problem which is cyclical. Yes, the system is built to turn us into monsters but I got out. Women in my life taught me to divest myself of power even though they were themselves victimized. And if you're on this comm then you're obviously looking for a way out of that cycle too. I haven't looked at your profile but I assume you've reached out to guide other men along a gentler path at least once in your life.
Women are not responsible for your happiness. Grow the fuck up. If you are a worthless pos incel loser--- start there, that is the reason no woman wants you. Lastly, why the fuck do you think you "deserve" to have a woman? Women aren't things to own, moron. Work on yourself because that is where happiness will start.