this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2025
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[–] nosuchanon@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Yeah, my favorite is when they figure out what features people are willing to pay for and then paywal everything that makes an app useful.

And after they monetize that fully and realize that the money is not endless, they switch to a subscription model. So that they can have you pay for your depreciating crappy software forever.

But at least you know it kind of works while you’re paying for it. It takes way too much effort to find some other unknown piece of software for the same function, and it is usually performs worse than what you had until the developers figure out how to make the features work again before putting it behind a paywall and subscription model again again.

But along the way, everyone gets to be miserable from the users to the developers and the project managers. Everyone except of course, the shareholders Because they get to make money, no matter how crappy their product, which they don’t use anyway, becomes.

A great recent example of this is Plex. It used to be open source and free, then it got more popular and started developing other features, and I asked people to pay reasonable amount for them.

After it got more popular and easy to use and set up, they started jacking up the prices, removing features and forcing people to buy subscriptions.

Your alternative now is to go back to a less fully featured more difficult to set up but open source alternative and something like Jellyfin. Except that most people won’t know how to set it up, there are way less devices and TVs will support their software, and you can’t get it to work easily for your technologically illiterate family and or friends.

So again, Your choices are stay with a crappy commercialized money-grubbing subscription based product that at least works and is fully featured for now until they decide to stop. Or, get a new, less developed, more difficult to set up, highly technical, and less supported product that’s open source and hope that it doesn’t fall into the same pitfalls as its user base and popularity grows.

[–] squaresinger@lemmy.world 39 points 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (5 children)

The article is very much off point.

  • Software quality wasn't great in 2018 and then suddenly declined. Software quality has been as shit as legally possible since the dawn of (programming) time.
  • The software crisis has never ended. It has only been increasing in severity.
  • Ever since we have been trying to squeeze more programming performance out of software developers at the cost of performance.

The main issue is the software crisis: Hardware performance follows moore's law, developer performance is mostly constant.

If the memory of your computer is counted in bytes without a SI-prefix and your CPU has maybe a dozen or two instructions, then it's possible for a single human being to comprehend everything the computer is doing and to program it very close to optimally.

The same is not possible if your computer has subsystems upon subsystems and even the keyboard controller has more power and complexity than the whole apollo programs combined.

So to program exponentially more complex systems we would need exponentially more software developer budget. But since it's really hard to scale software developers exponentially, we've been trying to use abstraction layers to hide complexity, to share and re-use work (no need for everyone to re-invent the templating engine) and to have clear boundries that allow for better cooperation.

That was the case way before electron already. Compiled languages started the trend, languages like Java or C# deepened it, and using modern middleware and frameworks just increased it.

OOP complains about the chain "React → Electron → Chromium → Docker → Kubernetes → VM → managed DB → API gateways". But he doesn't even consider that even if you run "straight on bare metal" there's a whole stack of abstractions in between your code and the execution. Every major component inside a PC nowadays runs its own separate dedicated OS that neither the end user nor the developer of ordinary software ever sees.

But the main issue always reverts back to the software crisis. If we had infinite developer resources we could write optimal software. But we don't so we can't and thus we put in abstraction layers to improve ease of use for the developers, because otherwise we would never ship anything.

If you want to complain, complain to the mangers who don't allocate enough resources and to the investors who don't want to dump millions into the development of simple programs. And to the customers who aren't ok with simple things but who want modern cutting edge everything in their programs.

In the end it's sadly really the case: Memory and performance gets cheaper in an exponential fashion, while developers are still mere humans and their performance stays largely constant.

So which of these two values SHOULD we optimize for?


The real problem in regards to software quality is not abstraction layers but "business agile" (as in "business doesn't need to make any long term plans but can cancel or change anything at any time") and lack of QA budget.

[–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 12 points 3 days ago

we would need exponentially more software developer budget.

Are you crazy? Profit goes to shareholders, not to invest in the project. Get real.

[–] JohnAnthony@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

I agree with the general idea of the article, but there are a few wild takes that kind of discredit it, in my opinion.

"Imagine the calculator app leaking 32GB of RAM, more than older computers had in total" - well yes, the memory leak went on to waste 100% of the machine's RAM. You can't leak 32GB of RAM on a 512MB machine. Correct, but hardly mind-bending.
"But VSCodium is even worse, leaking 96GB of RAM" - again, 100% of available RAM. This starts to look like a bad faith effort to throw big numbers around.
"Also this AI 'panicked', 'lied' and later 'admitted it had a catastrophic failure'" - no it fucking didn't, it's a text prediction model, it cannot panic, lie or admit something, it just tells you what you statistically most want to hear. It's not like the language model, if left alone, would have sent an email a week later to say it was really sorry for this mistake it made and felt like it had to own it.

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[–] Reginald_T_Biter@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)

The software crysis has never ended

MAXIMUM ARMOR

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[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Yeah what I hate that agile way of dealing with things. Business wants prototypes ASAP but if one is actually deemed useful, you have no budget to productisize it which means that if you don't want to take all the blame for a crappy app, you have to invest heavily in all of the prototypes. Prototypes who are called next gen project, but gets cancelled nine times out of ten 🤷🏻‍♀️. Make it make sense.

[–] squaresinger@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

This. Prototypes should never be taken as the basis of a product, that's why you make them. To make mistakes in a cheap, discardible format, so that you don't make these mistake when making the actual product. I can't remember a single time though that this was what actually happened.

They just label the prototype an MVP and suddenly it's the basis of a new 20 year run time project.

In my current job, they keep switching around everything all the time. Got a new product, super urgent, super high-profile, highest priority, crunch time to get it out in time, and two weeks before launch it gets cancelled without further information. Because we are agile.

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[–] IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works 111 points 4 days ago (3 children)

I think a substantial part of the problem is the employee turnover rates in the industry. It seems to be just accepted that everyone is going to jump to another company every couple years (usually due to companies not giving adequate raises). This leads to a situation where, consciously or subconsciously, noone really gives a shit about the product. Everyone does their job (and only their job, not a hint of anything extra), but they're not going to take on major long term projects, because they're already one foot out the door, looking for the next job. Shitty middle management of course drastically exacerbates the issue.

I think that's why there's a lot of open source software that's better than the corporate stuff. Half the time it's just one person working on it, but they actually give a shit.

[–] MotoAsh@piefed.social 17 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (8 children)

Definitely part of it. The other part is soooo many companies hire shit idiots out of college. Sure, they have a degree, but they've barely understood the concept of deep logic for four years in many cases, and virtually zero experience with ANY major framework or library.

Then, dumb management puts them on tasks they're not qualified for, add on that Agile development means "don't solve any problem you don't have to" for some fools, and... the result is the entire industry becomes full of functionally idiots.

It's the same problem with late-stage capitalism... Executives focus on money over longevity and the economy becomes way more tumultuous. The industry focuses way too hard on "move fast and break things" than making quality, and ... here we are, discussing how the industry has become shit.

[–] sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 21 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (5 children)

Shit idiots with enthusiasm could be trained, mentored, molded into assets for the company, by the company.

Ala an apprenticeship structure or something similar, like how you need X years before you're a journeyman at many hands on trades.

But uh, nope, C suite could order something like that be implemented at any time.

They don't though.

Because that would make next quarter projections not look as good.

And because that would require actual leadership.

This used to be how things largely worked in the software industry.

But, as with many other industries, now finance runs everything, and they're trapped in a system of their own making... but its not really trapped, because... they'll still get a golden parachute no matter what happens, everyone else suffers, so that's fine.

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[–] fodor@lemmy.zip 28 points 3 days ago (11 children)

All of the examples are commercial products. The author doesn't know or doesn't realize that this is a capitalist problem. Of course, there is bloat in some open source projects. But nothing like what is described in those examples.

And I don't think you can avoid that if you're a capitalist. You make money by adding features that maybe nobody wants. And you need to keep doing something new. Maintenance doesn't make you any money.

So this looks like AI plus capitalism.

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 6 points 3 days ago

Sometimes, I feel like writers know that it's capitalism, but they don't want to actually call the problem what it is, for fear of scaring off people who would react badly to it. I think there's probably a place for this kind of oblique rhetoric, but I agree with you that progress is unlikely if we continue pussyfooting around the problem

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[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 20 points 3 days ago
[–] panda_abyss@lemmy.ca 67 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I’ve been working at a small company where I own a lot of the code base.

I got my boss to accept slower initial work that was more systemically designed, and now I can complete projects that would have taken weeks in a few days.

The level of consistency and quality you get by building a proper foundation and doing things right has an insane payoff. And users notice too when they’re using products that work consistently and with low resources.

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 22 points 4 days ago (1 children)

This is one of the things that frustrates me about my current boss. He keeps talking about some future project that uses a new codebase we're currently writing, at which point we'll "clean it up and see what works and what doesn't." Meanwhile, he complains about my code and how it's "too Pythonic," what with my docstrings, functions for code reuse, and type hints.

So I secretly maintain a second codebase with better documentation and optimization.

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[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (4 children)

(I write only internal tools and I'm a team of one. We have a whole department of people working on public and customer focused stuff.)

My boss let me spend three months with absolutely no changes to functionality or UI, just to build a better, more configurable back end with a brand new config UI, partly due to necessity (a server constraint changed), otherwise I don't think it would have ever got off the ground as a project. No changes to master for three months, which was absolutely unheard of.

At times it was a bit demoralising to do so much work for so long with nothing to show for it, but I knew the new back end would bring useful extras and faster, robust changes.

The backend config ui is still in its infancy, but my boss is sooo pleased with its effect. He is used to a turnaround for simple changes of between 1 and 10 days for the last few years (the lifetime of the project), but now he's getting used to a reply saying I've pushed to live between 1 and 10 minutes.

Brand new features still take time, but now that we really understand what it needs to do after the first few years, it was enormously helpful to structure the whole thing to be much more organised around real world demands and make it considerably more automatic.

Feels food. Feels really good.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 13 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

32gb+ memory leaks require reboot on any machine, and need higher level than critical.

The AI later admitted: "This was a catastrophic failure on my part. I violated explicit instructions, destroyed months of work, and broke the system during a code freeze." Source: The Register

When I started using LLM's, and would yell at its stupidity and how to fix it, most models (Open AI excepted) were good enough to accept their stupidity. Deleting production databases certainly feels better with AI's woopsie. But being good at apologizing is not best employee desired skill.

Collapse (Coming soon) Physical constraints don't care about venture capital

This is naive, though the collapse part is worse. Venture capital doesn't care about physical constraints. Ridiculously expensive uneconomic SMRs will save us in 10 (ok 15) years. Kill solar now to permit it. But, scarcity is awesome for venture capital. Just buy the utilities, and get a board seat, get cheap, current price lock in, power for datacenters, and raise prices on consumers and non-WH-gifting-guest businesses by 100% to 200%. Physical constraints means scarcity means profits. Surely the only political solution is to genocide the mexican muslim rapists.

[–] oyzmo@lemmy.world 12 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)
[–] squaresinger@lemmy.world 22 points 3 days ago

They mainly show what's possible if you

  • don't have a deadline
  • don't have business constantly pivoting what the project should be like, often last minute
  • don't have to pass security testing
  • don't have customers who constantly demand something else
  • don't have constantly shifting priorities
  • don't have tight budget restrictions where you have to be accountable to business for every single hour of work
  • don't have to maintain the project for 15-20 years
  • don't have a large project scope at all
  • don't have a few dozen people working on it, spread over multiple teams or even multiple clusters
  • don't have non-technical staff dictating technical implementations
  • don't have to chase the buzzword of the day (e.g. Blockchain or AI)
  • don't have to work on some useless project that mostly exists for political reasons
  • can work on the product as long as you want, when you want and do whatever you want while working at it

Comparing hobby work that people do for fun with professional software and pinning the whole difference on skill is missing the point.

The same developer might produce an amazing 64k demo in their spare time while building mass-produced garbage-level software at work. Because at work you aren't doing what you want (or even what you can) but what you are ordered to.

In most setups, if you deliver something that wasn't asked for (even if it might be better) will land you in trouble if you do it repeatedly.


In my spare time I made the Fairberry smartphone keyboard attachment and now I am working on the PEPit physiotherapy game console, so that chronically ill kids can have fun while doing their mindnumbingly monotonous daily physiotherapy routine.

These are projects that dozens of people are using in their daily life.

In my day job I am a glorified code monkey keeping the backend service for some customer loyalty app running. Hardly impressive.


If an app is buggy, it's almost always bad management decisions, not low developer skill.

[–] chunes@lemmy.world 46 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Software has a serious "one more lane will fix traffic" problem.

Don't give programmers better hardware or else they will write worse software. End of.

[–] fluckx@lemmy.world 19 points 4 days ago (13 children)

This is very true. You don't need a bigger database server, you need an index on that table you query all the time that's doing full table scans.

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[–] vane@lemmy.world 26 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Quality in this economy ? We need to fire some people to cut costs and use telemetry to make sure everyone that's left uses AI to pay AI companies because our investors demand it because they invested all their money in AI and they see no return.

[–] afk_strats@lemmy.world 27 points 4 days ago (9 children)

Accept that quality matters more than velocity. Ship slower, ship working. The cost of fixing production disasters dwarfs the cost of proper development.

This has been a struggle my entire career. Sometimes, the company listens. Sometimes they don't. It's a worthwhile fight but it is a systemic problem caused by management and short-term profit-seeking over healthy business growth

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 24 points 4 days ago (3 children)

"Apparently there's never the money to do it right, but somehow there's always the money to do it twice."

Management never likes to have this brought to their attention, especially in a Told You So tone of voice. One thinks if this bothered pointy-haired types so much, maybe they could learn from their mistakes once in a while.

[–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 15 points 4 days ago (3 children)

We'll just set up another retrospective meeting and have a lessons learned.

Then we won't change anything based off the findings of the retro and lessons learned.

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[–] neclimdul@lemmy.world 20 points 4 days ago (4 children)

"AI just weaponized existing incompetence."

Daamn. Harsh but hard to argue with.

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[–] panda_abyss@lemmy.ca 24 points 4 days ago (5 children)

Fabricated 4,000 fake user profiles to cover up the deletion

This has got to be a reinforcement learning issue, I had this happen the other day.

I asked Claude to fix some tests, so it fixed the tests by commenting out the failures. I guess that’s a way of fixing them that nobody would ever ask for.

Absolutely moronic. These tools do this regularly. It’s how they pass benchmarks.

Also you can’t ask them why they did something, they have no capacity of introspection, they can’t read their input tokens, they just make up something that sounds plausible for “what were you thinking”.

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[–] geoff@midwest.social 18 points 4 days ago (4 children)

Anyone else remember a few years ago when companies got rid of all their QA people because something something functional testing? Yeah.

The uncontrolled growth in abstractions is also very real and very damaging, and now that companies are addicted to the pace of feature delivery this whole slipshod situation has made normal they can’t give it up.

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[–] PattyMcB@lemmy.world 15 points 4 days ago

Non-technical hiring managers are a bane for developers (and probably bad for any company). Just saying.

[–] kayazere@feddit.nl 21 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Another big problem not mentioned in the article is companies refusing to hire QA engineers to do actual testing before releasing.

The last two American companies I worked for had fired all the QA engineers or refused to hire any. Engineers were supposed to “own” their features and test them themselves before release. It’s obvious that this can’t provide the same level of testing and the software gets released full of bugs and only the happy path works.

[–] The_Decryptor@aussie.zone 14 points 4 days ago

The calculator leaked 32GB of RAM, because the system has 32GB of RAM. Memory leaks are uncontrollable and expand to take the space they're given, if you had 16MB of RAM in the system then that's all it'd be able to take before crashing.

Abstractions can be super powerful, but you need an understanding of why you're using the abstraction vs. what it's abstracting. It feels like a lot of them are being used simply to check off a list of buzzwords.

[–] Pika@sh.itjust.works 18 points 4 days ago

I'm glad that they added CloudStrike into that article, because it adds a whole extra level of incompetency in the software field. CS as a whole should have never happens in the first place if Microsoft properly enforced their stance they claim they had regarding driver security and the kernel.

The entire reason CS was able to create that systematic failure was because they were(still are?) abusing the system MS has in place to be able to sign kernel level drivers. The process dodges MS review for the driver by using a standalone driver that then live patches instead of requiring every update to be reviewed and certified. This type of system allowed for a live update that directly modified the kernel via the already certified driver. Remote injection of un-certified code should never have been allowed to be injected into a secure location in the first place. It was a failure on every level for both MS and CS.

[–] odama626@lemmy.world 10 points 4 days ago (3 children)

Accurate but ironically written by chatgpt

[–] BillBurBaggins@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago

And you can't even zoom into the images on mobile. Maybe it's harder than they think if they can't even pick their blogging site without bugs

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[–] themaninblack@lemmy.world 10 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Being obtuse for a moment, let me just say: build it right!

That means minimalism! No architecture astronauts! No unnecessary abstraction! No premature optimisation!

Lean on opinionated frameworks so as to focus on coding the business rules!

And for the love of all that is holy, have your developers sit next to the people that will be using the software!

All of this will inherently reduce runaway algorithmic complexity, prevent the sort of artisanal work that causes leakiness, and speed up your code.

[–] Axolotl_cpp@lemmy.ml 7 points 4 days ago (5 children)

Electron should be illegal

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[–] cygnus@lemmy.ca 18 points 4 days ago (5 children)

I wonder if this ties into our general disposability culture (throwing things away instead of repairing, etc)

[–] anamethatisnt@sopuli.xyz 15 points 4 days ago (1 children)

That and also man hour costs versus hardware costs. It's often cheaper to buy some extra ram than it is to pay someone to make the code more efficient.

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