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AOC is right: Jill Stein’s campaign is not serious
(www.salon.com)
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this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2024
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politics
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This person is member of a party supporting a genocide
And most everyone here is a member of a country supporting a genocide.
Any other instances of broad stroke guilt by association people would like to crime in with?
This person decided out of his own will to become member of a party supporting a genocide
And you have most likely decided out of your own will to remain a member of a country supporting genocide. You likely continue to pay taxes, that then go on to support genocide.
Are we really doing the "yet you participate in society" meme?
I was doing a reductio ad absurdum. I'm not doing a meme.
It's the same bad logic as the meme, but isn't the same logic you're criticizing.
Yeah that's kinda how a reductio ad absurdum works.
Isn't that when one does use the logic they're criticizing, but in a silly way?
And many of us would leave if we had the means and ability to be accepted elsewhere.
And I am sure many would leave the DNC if they had the means and ability to be accepted elsewhere. Unfortunately our electoral systems are set up so that if you're not in one of the two parties, your chances of winning are nil in many cases.
Are you really compare the two things? People do not decide to be born in america and the average person doesn't have the luxury to go in another country. This person decided to be a member of a party supporting a genocide just like someone decides to become a trump supporter
Yes
Here's the thing though, Americans don't have the luxury of going to another party, because only two of them are viable. So if you want to make political change your choices are incredibly restricted.
There's plenty of parties and you can make your own too. Perhaps they don't pay or make you popular as much as red and blue but that's another story.
Unless it is a local election, you have no chance of winning unless you're in one of the two main parties. So candidates almost always choose to join one of the parties.
I guess these who are in for the seat in power and not to back their ideals do just that.
I disagree. While that's probably the case nine times out of ten, just because somebody is in a higher power seat doesn't mean they got there because they're greedy.
There needs to be change and protections at higher levels of government too.
Every republican who voted to send weapons to Israel is complicit as well.
You don't want a ceasefire?
They're skeptical that Harris is actually better.
I know. Unfortunately geopolitics is boring and nuanced and not fun. When people resort to sound bytes I've stopped taking the bait so I counter with other sound bytes. When they show a basic understanding of civics and world affairs we can engage but until then it's sound bytes and buzz words.
Wait so does Harris support a ceasefire?
Yep!
Mmhmm. So is every member of the Republican Party. Even worse, they have promised to increase hostility and support. Now, I ask you, and all the other parrots: What do you feel we should do about it that does not involve potentially giving the Republican Party control of the very thing you're verbalizing so hard to stand up for?
Bingo. The red and blue party act as one.
If you want a genocide to stop one of the first thing you want to do is to stop supporting these who are making it possible
What do you believe will happen if those of us who do care, which are predominantly those on the Left, decide to step up and say we won't support a candidate?
Here's what I would do if I wanted to be a malicious and controlling dictator type:
First, let's assume both sides are the same. This is your stance so I'll take it too. That means that Blue wants what Red wants: To continue the genocide. The solution then is very easy: I convince the Blue side to step aside and allow Red to take control. I do this because I have wealth, I have power, I have status, I have the ability to suck up to Trump to save my own ass. If both sides are the same, Blue will do exactly as I've said. The end result is even better genocide, with golden stars on each day of the week another atrocity is committed.
Congratulations, both sides are the same. Which means the worst case scenario based on your logic.
Do you know why this is such a silly scenario?
Because whatever the Democratic Blue may be, they largely are not idiots. They know the game. They've likely held little debate sessions behind their definitely gilded doors and 100% golden toilets in argument for and against exactly what you just claimed. Why? Because **they're playing the same fucking game at every level. Moreover, they've proven they aren't the same, time and time again, which is a huge reason why no one ever agrees with you.
I am not saying your stance doesn't have merit. I AM saying that what merit it has must wait until we remove the current threat. Doing so means being in agreement, and it sucks. I personally want Bernie or AOC, yet you don't see the millions of people who agree with me championing them. We understand Gaza is a terrible situation and abhorrent. We also understand how it can get worse. Not just for Gaza, for Ukraine, and for the American people.
Though since you all like to strawman so much let me get in on it: If Trump is Putin's puppet, and Russia is at war with Ukraine, why are you saying that we should help Gaza at the expense of the Ukrainian people?
left and right are two buzzword used by the propaganda to manipulate people. If the red and blue party lose votes they will eventually lose power.
There's a genocide going on right now where dozen of kids are getting murdered daily. It's already as bad as it can be. The goal of mankind should be to stop that entirely not to have less or more of it.
The first goal should always be to have less of a bad thing when people are involved. Right and wrong may often be black and white, our choices are rarely so simple.
Let me preface this by saying I expect you've often been responded to here with anger and frustration. In return, you're frustrated. Why don't more people understand that a genocide is happening? Why don't we push the Democrats, who currently hold the Office of the POTUS, to stop sending weapons? To you I feel it probably makes no sense.
From my perspective, and the perspective of others like me, we know you're wrong. Not because you're taking a different stance than us. Because as bad as the situation in Gaza is now, it can be worse, and it can spread. Under a Trump regime, and make no mistake this is exactly what they will push to turn it into, we'll begin taking a more active role in Gaza. It'll go for selling a few old weapons to outright arming beyond what we're already doing. Trump and his cronies will seek to multiply the destruction and spread it beyond Gaza to any major State who defies them. Will they always act on this? No. The threat will be there.
Trump also has ties to Putin. Strong ones. It took a lot of evidence to convince me, I am not one of the first on that wagon. This effectively means that we will pull all aid from Ukraine. Russia may suck, though Putin is still dangerous, and Ukraine has done so well because of international support. I don't believe the MAGA morons would actively and openly support Russia against Ukraine but fuck me, millions died during covid because of Trump and the GOP, so what do I know.
North of us Canada will be in danger down the road. Here at home the homeless will be in severe danger. Students and children given less rights, and woman made back into the playthings the Republicans think they've always been. Food and gas prices will rise, the USPS will be slowly chipped away at, and there will be a civil war eventually. Likely an attempted Coup against Trump down the road by segments of our military, who have always been loyal to the Nation, and whom many commanders and promonent personnel have come out against Trump.
Gaza is terrible. We agree with you. We want it to stop. Many of us see what the pathf forward is likely to be. Not because we're guessing, because this is what the Right and Trump has promised, both verbally and in extensive written documents. If it makes us bad people, so be it. Just know that after we keep the Seat of the President most of us will support you in stopping Gaza. We're just trying to make sure the situation doesn't get even worse first.
We are not in a black and white situation. You can vote for a third party or use your time to do something more useful than endorsing online the red and blue party
They are supporting a genocide and arming israel government. These are their policies. Why don't you try to change trump policies?
Israel already has same of the best weapons available. It could be worst and they could receive nukes but you seem to not realize how bad the situation already is.
If this is your argument to keep voting for the red and blue party i would like to remind you that the US government under any administration cycling in power has ties with dictators around the world who are worst than putin like saudi royals.
Endorsing the political parties that for years have enriched corporations and shit on people misery and rights doesn't seem the best way to address these problems.
Who is "we"? are you a member of the democrat party? What's your plan to support the end of the genocide once elections are over?
Read what I said again. Situations themselves may be black or white, the choices we are presented with in those situations aren't always so clear cut. In this case I, and many just like me, feel the best thing we can do for the World is stop Trump and the larger GOP party. They are currently that dangerous.
As for weapon deals:
These are historical acts done by every President since, fuck, I'm actually not sure. It's been a hella long time though. Note though that wars and conflict have historically been supported most heavily by the Right.
I'd like to point out I'm only interested in voting for the better potential future for all of us. If I thought Republicans were the choice I'd vote them. However, Democrats have made it quite obvious that while they have their faults, they aren't literally promising to do worse.
I'm beginning to notice you're cherry picking responses and not being fair. Go on, compare how the GOP has acted in regards to the livelihood and lives of others. Can you say: Abortion ban? Contraceptive restrictions? Lynching? The motherfucking coup attempt?
What's your plan if Trump and the GOP head the nation in a few months and things get worse? Personally, I expect your kind to suddenly go quiet in embarrassment and shame, or fear if you're smart.
You're wrong. Not about Gaza, that shit is absolutely evil. About your priorities. Just like those on the Right, you stand so firm on your tiny little pedestal that you're convinced your perspective is the only right one. We have a choice between possibly making things better and a guarantee they'll get worse. You're just so damned stuck that even if you saw merit in my argument you wouldn't admit it for fear of seeming like you're in support of the genocide. In reality, by obfuscating the narrative and causing division, you may find yourself an ally of, if not far greater evil acts, then much more of the same dotted through hundreds of communities and threatened the world over.
Nothing will ever change if things stay exactly as they are. You seem in good faith but you seem to not have realize yet how much rigged the system around you is. Evil has no allies among good
I do agree with you. Change is needed. However, the timing is wrong. This is why I don't denounce your perspective, only your timing.
It's election time and there's a genocide going on as we speak. Suit yourself and wait
And the rest of the world could take it upon themselves to do something. Yet, as with every major election, people just like you are tricked into ignoring the problems we must face here, to fix other issues elsewhere. There is always a conflict. Always.
But hey, be a proxy to the problem, world cop. I won't stop you, can't stop you. I can tell you you're wrong. Shitty as it is we're making a disgusting choice to not jeopardize an election against a fascist state. I'm sorry if you feel so strongly that the minorities, LGBTQ+ community, women, and the children of this country aren't worth your time. Them and others are the ones we are trying to protect, along with the rest of the world which will suffer if the U.S. falls into fascism.
If you are against a fascist state you should look at third parties or else
Uh-huh. And in a two party system where one side has been proven beyond doubt to be worse, you want us to vote third party while that side literally promises fascism if they win.
Yeah sure, and while I do that I'll donate $20 to charity and believe over half of it actually goes to the cause.
You see, all you 3rd party types never put in the work. You just come scuttling out of a dark corner every four years, yell about it, do literally nothing except confuse people and steal a few votes, and then disappear. No work in local elections, hardly a peep in off years, zero long term commitment to build a base. All of it derailment and disillusionment.
You want change? Shut up and do the work.
They are both fascists, if your concern is fascism don't vote for them
Ding ding! Wow had to scroll further than I expected to reach the compulsory genocide comment.
It's lost all meaning at this point, really. It's just something to call someone they disagree with.