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Estimating the Death Toll of the War on Gaza
(dataactivists.org)
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this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2024
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Proving what we've all been saying for months now. Israel is committing a genocide with the support of the "civilized" west.
Theorizing a large number of hypothetical deaths from indirect causes does not prove genocide.
Oh yeah cause the genocidal intent hasn't been shown over and over again through the public statements put out there by sitting members of the Israeli government. We must all suffer from collective amnesia.
Comments by extremists in the immediate aftermath of a traumatic terror attack don't establish genocidal intent. The actions over the past year clearly aren't in line with those comments.
"immediate aftermath"
They're still making those comments up to this day. They're even attending conferences on settling Gaza where expelling Palestinians from their ancestral lands is a commonly discussed and widespread idea, which in turn constitutes ethnic cleansing and in combination with their statements and actions can amount to genocide.
I won't discuss why water is wet. The fact that Israel is committing a genocide has been discussed by various UN officials, ICC officials, and experts on genocide. Go argue with them.
I don't give a crap what has been "discussed" - the facts clearly show that they aren't committing genocide. The world knows what an actual genocide looks like.
"""the world""" aka the five countries fueling the genocide with their own separate set of """facts"""
You missed my point.
The world knows what genocide looks like because we've seen it. And it looks nothing like what is happening in Gaza.
You seem to talk for the entire world. I wonder who put you in charge.
What are you, 10 years old?
Look, I'm not the one talking about the entire world holding my own personal opinion here.
Sir, your president is quoted in the genocide case (South Africa vs Israel) as one of the inciters to genocide.
First of all, he's not my president. I'm not Israeli.
Second, comments made by certain people in the immediate aftermath of a traumatic terror attack aren't proof of genocidal intent. He has clarified his position since then.
Also, have you ever wondered why South Africa of all countries brought the case to the ICJ? Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that they entertained Hamas leaders as visiting dignitaries a month before they submitted the case?
Ah, you classify Hamas as a terrorist organisation.... Since South Africa regards Hamas to be a resistance movement (and this is the position of most of the world), coordinating with them would be sensible.
LOL, it is not the position of most of the world that Hamas is a resistance movement. It is only the position of radical Islamists and Western leftist anarchists.
They are an organization that formed for the purpose of committing genocide and they have been responsible for the barbaric murder of thousands of civilians. They are as terrorist as you can get.
By the way, there is mounting evidence that support among Gazans for peaceful coexistence with Israel is much higher than previously thought. Evidence, for example, that Hamas has been fudging the numbers on their surveys that show otherwise, recent surveys that show much more positive results, and with the death of Sinwar and damage to Hamas, Gazans are starting to speak out against them. If that is indeed true, it destroys the whole "resistance" and "decolonization" narrative since they wouldn't actually represent the people for whom they claim to be resisting.
I wonder why Israel does not allow journalists into Gaza and has killed more than 170 Palestinian journalists?
It's because Israel must really love the freedom of the press!
Israel doesn't even allow humanitarian workers to enter Gaza. Which is a warcrime if anyone is counting.
Stop with the genocide denial
Genocide
Others: AP News, Time, Reuters, Vox, CBC
Deliberate Attacks on Civilians
Israel deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so:
The Dahiya Doctrine & Israel’s Use of Disproportionate Force
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Lavender
Where's Daddy
Israel also targets Israeli Soldiers and Civilians to prevent them being leveraged as hostages, known as the Hannibal Directive. Which was also used on Oct 7th.
Stop with the genocide accusations. It's offensive to people who have actually suffered genocides.
My ancestors did. They went through the Holocaust. Israel is committing a genocide.
It isn't a genocide just because you say it is.
And it is nothing like the Holocaust. Not even remotely similar. There is literally nothing, not a single thing, that is similar.
Similarly, it isn't not a genocide just because the perpetrators say it isn't.
Many experts and scholars do make the claim that this is genocide, and frankly a significant section of the world that doesn't have a direct vested interest (i.e. not involved) seems to be of the opinion that it is.
Most people are painfully ignorant about Israel and soak up the propaganda they see on TikTok.
An accusation of genocide is a pretty serious accusation and the onus is on people who make the accusation to prove the case. You don't get to call it genocide just because you hate Israel.
No, but as I said plenty of experts and scholars are calling it one. I believe the ICJ said that it is "plausible," which I taken to mean that it is inconclusive. Consider that this was many months ago before the more recent escalations.
For my own part, I'm neither an expert nor do I have enough reliable, unbiased information to make any sort of assertion on the topic. Reasonably, I can only defer to the experts and try to filter out sources that have a vested interested (in either direction). There are experts saying both yes and no, so it really comes down to who you trust.
Newsflash: lots of these "experts" hate Israel. Same reason why they seem single-mindedly focused on such a tiny country with all the other atrocities and human rights abuses happening around the world. Did you know that just yesterday the Turkish military was bombing the Kurds?
And no, the ICJ did not rule that it is plausible Israel is committing genocide. This is a popular misconception. The former head of the ICJ clarified the ruling: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919
"Ms Donoghue explained that the court decided the Palestinians had a “plausible right” to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court."
In other words, the court basically said the case can move forward. That's it.
Unfortunately, there is no unbiased information about Israel. Even the so-called experts are biased. Israel is arguably the most divisive country on the planet (which seems odd for such a tiny country of only 9 million citizens) and anybody writing about it does so because they have strong opinions about it.
Well, nothing is going to convince you that Israel might (not necessarily is, but might) be committing genocide since you are just going to claim that experts from multiple nations and walks of life sre biased.
One could reasonably conclude that this means the case is inconclusive. The case hasn't been dismissed, but it hasn't rendered a verdict of guilty or acquittal either. The question is still open.
You do appear to have already made up your mind on this matter. You have other comments authoritatively proclaiming that Israel is not guilty.
Of course nothing is going to convince me of that because the facts simply don't support it. By the way, did you know that during the 2014 war in Gaza, when the death toll was around 2500, people were accusing Israel of committing genocide then too? Anti-Zionists deliberately stretch the bounds of these concepts to make Israel a pariah. Just keep throwing accusations around and eventually something will stick. And even if it doesn't, Israel's enemies will continue to believe it anyway. This is a longstanding part of their propaganda strategy.
No, it literally means nothing other than, "We, the ICJ, can hear this case."
Ignoring every fact you don't like usually does that.
Besides the point of arguing if or isn't a genocide, you have to admit its pretty fucking bad that Israel is doing something that looks so much like one right?
Even if not genocide they shouldn't be bombing, killing, or starving their neighbors
Like I said, people were screaming genocide in 2014 when the war lasted 2 weeks and the death toll was miniscule. Meaningless.
They were violently attacked and they have the right to respond with military force, the same right that any sovereign nation has. It's one thing to question whether Israel could be doing more to prevent civilian casualties, but if your starting point is that Israel just shouldn't respond at all, then your position is simply unreasonable to begin with.
See this is again you ignoring what is happening. A response is not destroy everything.
Death toll isn't the issue. It's their systematic destruction of the country. Their schools, hospitals, infrastructure and records.
It meets all the criteria. Even your response is just Israel can kill everyone and it would be justified even while being the ones lording over the Palestinians.
Gaza isn't a country, it's a tiny enclave. War is very destructive. The best way to avoid it is to not start wars.
Oh yeah, the singularity of the Holocaust. The same kind of thinking that empowers Germany to aide countries in committing all kinds of atrocities all around the world just because those will never be THE Holocaust, so it's okay.
The Holocaust was unique and when someone feels the need to downplay it, that reflects very poorly on them.
Every single genocide is unique. Not just the holocaust. Including the one committed in Palestine at the hands of the zionists nowadays.
And again, Gaza is not a genocide.