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this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2023
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Punishing drunk drivers is well-deserved, but as long as car-dependent infrastructure encourages drunk driving, it is considerably more difficult to actually decrease the rate of it. Taking a taxi is expensive and being a DD is no fun, so people take stupid risks. If you know you can take public transit home, there's no reason to take such a risk at all.
Could take a Uber/Lyft.
I deal with this issue, the big bus station and my house are divided by a highway. So me and my buddies go out it either has to be very local or I have to take a rideshare for a five minute drive home.
Why does this have to be a thing? In my country they have bridges for pedestrians over the road, or underground passageway.
In the US this was done on purpose
Because america
I live in a city where taking an Uber or Lyft a few miles is like $25, maybe $50 at the last call surge. Unfortunately ride-sharing is a lot more expensive in cities that don't also have good transit, so I keep getting reminded that $25 is cheap for a ride share across any distance.
Back when I used to go out drinking, catching the last train home or taking an Uber was my go-to choice. I don't drink much nowadays, but the rush home in an area without good transit infrastructure is still something I think about a lot.
not everyone can justify that every time they go out with friends
People need to live within their means. It's not a human right to go get drunk every weekend. If you can't afford it, you stay home.
Or get drunk at home
This honestly reads like a defense of drunk driving, blaming the lack of infrastructure for bad decision.
Edit: or something very close to that.
But if you’re just saying we should design around stupid, then I guess I can agree there.
Anything said before the word 'but' can be ignored in these instances.
Explaining is not forgiving.
You have to design around stupid, because this is the real world. People can only expected to be rational sometimes, and in aggregate, you need systems that expect people to take whatever is the most obvious or easy choice available to them, whether it's actually a good idea or not.
If only there was something to do besides getting drunk. Or if only there was a way to stop drinking before you get hammered.
Car dependent infrastructure has very little to do with people making bad decisions. Getting drunk shouldn’t be a given.
It shouldn't, but unfortunately it's a big part of our society.
i would go further and say it's a big part of human culture generally.
Those poor murderers, they couldn’t help themselves.
People can enjoy a drink responsibly, but you shouldn't drive even if you've only had a couple of drinks. Even a small amount of impairment is unacceptable when you're controlling a machine that could easily kill other people by mistake.
I’d argue anyone drinking and getting behind the wheel is making a conscious enough decision to make it murder. And I hope that more cases end up going that route of prosecution
That's an interesting take, that going drinking without a plan to get home without driving drunk would considered premeditation. I don't think I agree with it exactly, but it certainly should be an enhancement to manslaughter.
A little philosophical, but the drunk person who decides to drive is a different person than the sober person who decided to drink in the first place. Punishing the sober person for the decisions made by the drunk version of themselves is maybe misguided, except for as a deterrent that says "don't turn into a drunk person that can make stupid decisions"
I'm not sure what the right answer is to this problem. Just some food for thought
I’ve thought about that before, personally, drunk driving is SO UNTHINKABLE to me, it’s never even occurred to me at any level of drunk. All the way down to near blackout drunk.
If the thought of killing someone doesn’t deter you that much, then maybe definitely ruining the rest of your life will have that effect. And if you really can’t trust your drunk self, if drunk you is so much more stupid, then yeah, society needs to scare you out of drinking in the first place.
The crux of the issue is they think they won’t hurt anyone. They give 0 thought to the idea they would hurt some. That’s how this happens. Any person who thinks they might hurt someone won’t drive. They gain false confidence by drive many times without incident.
I don’t think a single drink drive ever considered that they would hurt some or get hurt.
Yeah, exactly. It's the same reason why punishment is only a deterrent to crime to certain extent, and it doesn't work absolutely.
You could make the punishment for shoplifting be summary execution, and it would still happen on a regular basis. Because people think they won't get caught, even with evidence of lots of people having been caught before.
That’s just about the least convincing take I’ve ever heard. You can absolutely punish the person who made the decision to impair themselves beyond the ability to make rational decisions. They came from the same decision to get drunk by the sober person. A person who has a propensity to get drunk and drive is a danger to everyone and needs to be dealt with accordingly.
I think you missed my point. My point is that the crime the sober person makes is deciding to become impaired. That's different from saying the sober person made a decision to drive drunk - the drunk person made that decision, not the sober person. There are 2 different people here in this scenario. Whether the law should treat it that way is a separate discussion. It would have some similarities with a "temporary insanity" defense.
I did not miss your point. I thought it was entirely unconvincing. The other person is the same person just with the disadvantage of being fucked up.
Edit. Furthermore, I believe that the drunk self is just an amplified version of the sober self. My theory is that if your drunk self is capable of doing bad, so is your sober self.
Hi friend, you do you, but it's the same idea as this: https://old.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/peftk6/a_death_row_inmates_dementia_means_he_cant/
You're of course free do disagree, but I've the sense that you haven't really considered the issue.
I also disagree with the oft-repeated sentiment that the drunk self is an amplified version of the sober self. I think the simple reality is that alcohol changes our behaviors and judgments.
Then I believe you’re an enabler and should probably rethink what you’re willing to tolerate
Do you really think I haven’t considered your idea? It is utterly unconvincing. Dementia and drunkenness are not the same thing, and I’d say if a person can’t remember doing something heinous, that is not a compelling reason either.
I think dementia and acts committed while drunk have some similarities when it comes to assigning responsibility (and punishment), but yes they're not the same. One is involuntary, and the other is voluntary. The voluntary act to get drunk is what I called out in my first post. But after that initial act, I think the 2 scenarios are more alike than they are different.
Ok. You have clearly said that already. If you have nothing else, then I guess we can agree to disagree
I don't drink, but I've known plenty of people that can have a potent margarita, hangout for an hour or two, and then hop on one foot or do a cartwheel just fine.
I have serious doubts those folks are any more of a danger to anyone than the average driver or the average tired or emotional driver.
I guess what I'm saying is... it's idealistic to never be impaired and always be at 100% but there's a tolerable amount of impairment where realistically it's not going to have an impact, and I think the law takes that into account appropriately as is; so as to say driving after a drink is not the same thing as driving while drunk. It's not the folks genuinely having one or two, it's the folks that had "one or two" (12) barely made it to their car and then went down the road.
I think I agree with that except that I think that that is equally a problem. I don't think people should be trusted to drive, en masse, out of necessity. There are too many things that make it dangerous when people really don't have a lot of choice in the matter, and may have to drive when they're not actually feeling up to it.
That's valid. There are definitely a lot of people I bump into that I go "man how did that person get a license!?" Granted, everybody makes mistakes.
We really need to crack down on tailgating in the US though, it's out of control. It doesn't get you anywhere faster and it ensures everyone on the road is less safe.
There's something about driving that innately dehumanizes - I swear I've actually seen studies about this. When people are behind the wheel, they don't relate to the world around them as personally, empathy kind of disappears, it all becomes something like a game, and everything between them and their destination is just an obstacle to be overcome.
Drinking is a personal choice.
Yes, I agree people are allowed to do absolutely idiotic things without consequences.
Drinking is a personal choice. Getting drunk affects more than yourself.
Yeah, people should have the right to choose to drink, and then choose to drive, and “accidentally” kill someone.
That isn't what I said and you know it. Drinking is not something a person should have to justify to anyone but themselves. This is not an endorsement of drunk driving and no one assuming good faith would have assumed I was making one.
You have a right to put a chemical into your own body. It only becomes an issue for those around you when A leads to B and B is other people either getting hurt or very nearly getting hurt.
Well, I didn’t get what you were saying. In this context, I don’t why tf anyone is even talking about infrastructure.
And then your statement seemed like a non sequitur. So, I was just saying what my read of your statement was.
I don’t think people normally say things like what I said, legitimately accusing the other of saying that. But as a hyperbolic expression, for the sake of highlighting a misunderstanding.
Sorry I snapped at you.
No worries, jumping to the hyperbolic tone was also a bit snappy of me.
The good news is if everyone keeps driving eventually snow won't be an issue for you.