Expecting heavy industry greenwashing of this : memes

[–] lime@feddit.nu 21 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

threeish years apparently, given you run it on green electricity.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Something is screwy with the power generation part of that graphic, or the person who made it is basing it on a country that doesn't have much wind or solar power.

In the UK there are cheap tariffs for overnight electricity because of all the wind power.

If you're in America, you're pretty much fucked for green transport in any case. Canada has some great trolly bus and underground public transport because of all the hydroelectric power. My home city has only been buying electric buses for a long while now.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

since it's in tonnes of CO~2~ equivalent over the entire life of the vehicle it's most likely very smoothed out.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Like I say, there's no way those wind turbines cost anywhere like as much co2 to build and maintain as those oil rigs, oil tankers and oil refineries. Not even close. Not even comparable. This has to be US data from some state with no solar or something. Graph is screwy.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (2 children)

i'm confused. you say "those wind turbines" but we're talking about loads, not generators. on average, the world has less than 15% of its energy needs met by renewables.

incidentally, the us has the second most intstalled solar capacity of any single country, about 2/3rds that of europe.

wind turbines seem to average at 10kg CO~2~eq/MWh over their lifetime, but since they are not "plannable" power you always need something else to meet demand. if that something else is a gas peaker plant (490kg CO~2~eq/MWh), you're screwed emissions wise.

Edit: Here's a chart of the total CO~2~eq for the different regions of the world. using the 2021 EU number of 235g/kWh, 26 tonnes of total charging emissions would require you to fully charge a 2021 polestar 2 standard range 26 000 000g ÷ 235g ÷ 64kWh ≈ 1728 times, which would give the car a lifetime of between four and sixteen years, depending on your driving style (lower end you charge it every day, which is not realistic, higher end you charge once or twice a week). if we use the 2021 world average of 369g, that gives us 1101 full charges, or 3-10 years depending on driving style.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

A small point Re the EU average, you're including a bunch of countries that don't have as much wind power as the UK, and there's a world of difference between peak CO2 for peak electricity at teatime and early evening and CO2 for charging the car overnight when the electricity is cheapest exactly because it's greenest and there's so much wind power overnight (in the UK).

From your Forbes article:

Good news: amortizing the carbon cost over the decades-long lifespan of the equipment, Bernstein determined that wind power has a carbon footprint 99% less than coal-fired power plants, 98% less than natural gas, and a surprise 75% less than solar.

So I don't see how the carbon cost of generating that electricity can be so much higher than the carbon cost of petrol which is surely even higher than natural gas which doesn't require refineries, when it's actually about 2% as much over the lifetime of the equipment.

Like I said, graph is screwy. Someone in the fossil fuel industry doesn't want you to think that electric is greener. It's a lie. It's FUD. Stop parroting it.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

your first paragraph makes no sense. yes the eu includes more countries than the uk. it's a connected market.

these stats are by polestar and rivian, as it says in the thing. if you have better sources, give them to me.

check my followup post.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

it’s a connected market.

The UK isn't even in the EU, and different countries certainly have different energy mixes anyway.

if you have better sources, give them to me.

I literally quoted your own sources! I followed the links and I read them. Didn't you? I quoted them back to you. What a weird comment.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 points 3 hours ago

The UK isn’t even in the EU, and different countries certainly have different energy mixes anyway.

there's a huge mass of cables connecting the uk to the eu. energy you use is never "from" a single source, it's from wherever it's generated, which means it's from the eu grid. i don't even know why the uk is in this conversation?

I literally quoted your own sources! I followed the links and I read them. Didn’t you? I quoted them back to you. What a weird comment.

i did. i used the actual numbers presented by the sources though, rather than the predictions.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

I wanted to double-check my numbers so i found a reddit thread asking people how often they charge their cars, and tried to extract info from it using mistral (so take it with a grain of salt. it gave sources but i managed to close the page after screenshotting).

transcript

User: how many times a week do people in this reddit thread charge their cars on average? https://old.reddit.com/r/electriccars/comments/1c0ucpg/ev_owners_how_often_do_you_charge_your_ev_and_how/

Mistral: In the Reddit thread you linked, most EV owners report charging their cars about 2–3 times per week on average. Many users mentioned plugging in their EVs at home whenever convenient, often overnight, rather than waiting for the battery to run low. Some charge daily out of habit, while others charge every few days depending on their driving needs and battery range. The majority have access to home charging, which makes frequent top-ups easy and convenient.

Charging Frequency (from user comments):

About 30–40% of users charge daily, often overnight at home, regardless of battery level.
Another 30–40% charge 2–3 times per week, usually when their battery drops below a certain range (e.g., 100 miles or 50%).
The remaining 20–30% charge less frequently, such as once a week or only when needed for longer trips.

Typical Charging Behavior:

Many users set their charge limit to 60–80% for daily use to preserve battery health.
Some Tesla owners (especially with LFP batteries) keep their cars plugged in most of the time, charging to 100% without issue.
Users with shorter commutes (e.g., <50 miles/day) often charge every 2–3 days, while those with longer commutes or less efficient EVs charge daily.

Range Added per Charge:

Short Commutes (<50 miles/day): Many users add 50–100 miles per charge, often charging every 2–3 days.
Moderate Use (50–150 miles/day): Users in this group typically add 100–200 miles per session, charging daily or every other day.
Longer Trips or Less Frequent Charging: Some users add 150–300 miles, charging once a week or as needed.

Summary Table (Based on Thread Comments)

Miles Added Per Charge	Frequency Mentioned	Typical Use Case
50–100 miles	Common	Short commutes, 2–3x/week
100–150 miles	Very common	Daily commutes, overnight charge
150–300 miles	Less common	Long trips, weekly charging

Inference: Most home chargers add enough range to cover their daily driving, rarely letting the battery drop below 20–30%. The data is sufficient to infer that 50–150 miles per charge is the norm for regular use.

User: how about car models? are there enough mentions of which model people drive that we can figure out the average number of kWhs used per capita from the added range and the size of the battery of the mentioned models?

Mistral: The Reddit thread does mention several specific EV models, and we can use their battery sizes and the reported range added per charge to estimate average kWh used per person. Here’s what we know:

Commonly Mentioned Models & Battery Sizes

From the thread, the most frequently mentioned models include:

Tesla Model 3 (Standard/Long Range): ~50–82 kWh
Tesla Model Y (Standard/Long Range): ~60–81 kWh
Hyundai Kona Electric: ~39–64 kWh
Chevy Bolt: ~65 kWh
Ford Mustang Mach-E: ~68–98 kWh
Nissan Leaf: ~40–62 kWh

Reported Range Added per Charge

Most users add 50–150 miles per charge.
A few add 150–250 miles (usually for longer trips or less frequent charging).

Estimating kWh Used per Charge

Using the EPA efficiency ratings (miles per kWh) for these models, we can estimate kWh used per charge:

Model	Battery Size (kWh)	EPA Efficiency (mi/kWh)	Reported Range Added	Estimated kWh Used Per Charge
Tesla Model 3 (LR)	82	4.1	100–150 miles	24–37 kWh
Tesla Model Y (LR)	81	3.8	100–150 miles	26–39 kWh
Hyundai Kona	64	3.2	50–100 miles	16–31 kWh
Chevy Bolt	65	3.6	50–100 miles	14–28 kWh
Ford Mach-E (ER)	98	3.0	100–150 miles	33–50 kWh
Nissan Leaf	40–62	3.0	50–100 miles	17–33 kWh

Note: Efficiency varies with driving conditions, but these are reasonable averages.

Average kWh Used per Charge (Per Capita)

For 50–100 miles added: ~15–35 kWh per charge
For 100–150 miles added: ~25–50 kWh per charge

Most users fall in the 20–40 kWh per charge range, depending on their model and daily needs.

User: using the data on this page https://www.iea.org/reports/electricity-2025/emissions can we create a table for how much emissions each car would produce while charging in the listed regions? use the 2021 number.

Mistral: Here is a table estimating the CO2 emissions per 100 km for common EV models when charged in different regions, using 2021 CO2 emissions per kWh data from the IEA and typical battery sizes and efficiencies:

CO2 Emissions per 100 km for EVs by Region (2021 Data)

Region	CO2 per kWh (g)	Tesla Model 3 (15 kWh/100 km)	Hyundai Kona (17 kWh/100 km)	Chevy Bolt (16 kWh/100 km)	Ford Mach-E (18 kWh/100 km)
European Union	~250	3.75 kg CO2	4.25 kg CO2	4.00 kg CO2	4.50 kg CO2
United States	~380	5.70 kg CO2	6.46 kg CO2	6.08 kg CO2	6.84 kg CO2
China	~550	8.25 kg CO2	9.35 kg CO2	8.80 kg CO2	9.90 kg CO2
India	~700	10.50 kg CO2	11.90 kg CO2	11.20 kg CO2	12.60 kg CO2

Notes & Assumptions

CO2 per kWh (2021): EU ~250g, US ~380g, China ~550g, India ~700g.
Energy use per 100 km: Based on EPA/real-world efficiency for each model.
Calculation: (CO2 per kWh) × (kWh per 100 km) = kg CO2 per 100 km.

Key Takeaways

EU and US: Lower emissions due to cleaner electricity grids.
China and India: Higher emissions due to coal-heavy grids.
Efficiency matters: More efficient cars (like the Tesla Model 3) emit less CO2 per km, even in high-emission regions.

User: data from polestar and rivian lifecycle analyses in 2021 estimates that over its lifetime, the electricity used by an "average" electric vecicle produces a total of 26 tonnes CO2eq. using the data we now have, can we estimate lower and upper bounds for the age of the mentioned models where they would have "produced" 26tCO2eq in different regions?

Mistral: Let’s use the kWh per charge and CO2 per kWh by region from our earlier tables to estimate how many years it would take for the mentioned EV models to reach 26 tonnes CO2eq from charging alone, based on typical charging habits.

Recap of Key Data

kWh per charge (typical): 20–40 kWh
CO2 per kWh (2021):
- EU: 250 g
- US: 380 g
- China: 550 g
- India: 700 g
Charging frequency: 2–3 times per week (104–156 charges/year)

Calculations

1. CO2 per Charge (kg)

EU: 20–40 kWh × 0.25 kg = 5–10 kg CO2/charge
US: 20–40 kWh × 0.38 kg = 7.6–15.2 kg CO2/charge
China: 20–40 kWh × 0.55 kg = 11–22 kg CO2/charge
India: 20–40 kWh × 0.70 kg = 14–28 kg CO2/charge

2. Annual CO2 from Charging

EU: 5–10 kg/charge × 104–156 charges = 520–1,560 kg CO2/year
US: 7.6–15.2 kg/charge × 104–156 charges = 790–2,371 kg CO2/year
China: 11–22 kg/charge × 104–156 charges = 1,144–3,432 kg CO2/year
India: 14–28 kg/charge × 104–156 charges = 1,456–4,368 kg CO2/year

3. Years to Reach 26 Tonnes (26,000 kg) CO2eq

EU: 26,000 ÷ (520–1,560) = 17–50 years
US: 26,000 ÷ (790–2,371) = 11–33 years
China: 26,000 ÷ (1,144–3,432) = 8–23 years
India: 26,000 ÷ (1,456–4,368) = 6–18 years

Note: These are rough estimates based on charging habits and grid emissions, and do not include manufacturing or other lifecycle emissions.

User: let's see how they change with different charging frequencies.

Mistral: Here’s how the years to reach 26 tonnes CO2eq change with different charging frequencies (1x, 2x, 3x, and 4x per week), using the same kWh per charge (20–40 kWh) and 2021 grid emissions:

Assumptions

kWh per charge: 20–40 kWh
CO2 per kWh (2021): EU 250g, US 380g, China 550g, India 700g

Years to 26 Tonnes CO2eq by Charging Frequency

Region	1x/week ( 52 charges/yr)	2x/week (104 charges/yr)	3x/week (156 charges/yr)	4x/week (208 charges/yr)
EU	34–100 years	17–50 years	11–33 years	8–25 years
US	22–66 years	11–33 years	7–22 years	5–17 years
China	15–45 years	8–23 years	5–15 years	4–11 years
India	12–36 years	6–18 years	4–12 years	3–9 years

User: what's the average scrapping age of vehicles in the listed regions?

Mistral: Here’s the average scrapping age of vehicles in the regions you asked about, based on the latest available data:

Average Scrapping Age by Region (2021–2024)

Region	Average Scrapping Age	Notes
European Union	~12–17 years	EU average is 12.3 years; some countries (e.g., Greece, Estonia) average 17 years. Newer cars are found in Luxembourg (~7.9 years).
United States	~12.6 years	As of 2024, the average age of cars and light trucks on the road is 12.6 years, with scrappage rates around 4.5–4.6% per year.
China	~10–15 years	Most passenger vehicles are scrapped after 10–15 years, though policies are pushing for earlier scrappage of older, more polluting vehicles.
India	~15 years	The national scrappage policy targets vehicles older than 15 years for mandatory scrapping, with incentives for voluntary scrappage of private cars over 15 years.

my takeaway is that, if charged three times a week, which seems to be common, most ev's get to 26tCO~2~eq before being scrapped no matter their location.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

The graph fails the plausibility check of "does using fossil fuelled car pollute about the same as EVs" and the graph trying to make out that they do. I too can ask AI questions, but I think AIs are full of shit. Here it is anyway, and the fossil fuel cars are getting a free pass for ALL the CO2 emissions during generation, which as per my other comment, are about 50 times higher assuming that oil extraction and refinery isn't actually better than natural gas:

CO2 Emissions Comparison

Assumptions

Electric Vehicle (EV):

Average energy consumption: 20 kWh/100 km (or 0.2 kWh/km).
Carbon intensity during overnight charging: 75 gCO2/kWh. Petrol Engine:
Average emissions: 150 gCO2/km (this can vary based on vehicle efficiency). Diesel Engine:
Average emissions: 120 gCO2/km (again, this can vary based on vehicle efficiency).

CO2 Emissions Calculation

Electric Vehicle (EV)
Energy consumption per mile:

1 km = 0.621371 miles, so 20 kWh/100 km = 20 kWh/62.1371 miles = 0.321 kWh/mile. CO2 emissions per mile:
0.321 kWh/mile×75 gCO2/kWh=24.1 gCO2/mile.

Petrol Engine
CO2 emissions per mile:

150 gCO2/km×0.621371 miles/km=93.2 gCO2/mile.

Diesel Engine
CO2 emissions per mile:

120 gCO2/km×0.621371 miles/km=74.6 gCO2/mile.

Summary of CO2 Emissions per Mile Vehicle Type CO2 Emissions (gCO2/mile) Electric Vehicle (EV) 24.1 Petrol Engine 93.2 Diesel Engine 74.6

Conclusion Charging an electric vehicle overnight on a greener grid results in approximately 24.1 gCO2 per mile, which is significantly lower than the emissions from petrol engines at 93.2 gCO2 per mile and diesel engines at 74.6 gCO2 per mile. This comparison highlights the environmental advantages of EVs, especially when charged during times of high renewable energy availability. If you have any further questions or need more details, feel free to ask!

[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

i've provided mistral with sources and asked it to summarize them, then do averages on those summarisations. i've not just asked it to pull data from wherever (except the scrapping thing). i too think ai's are full of shit, but i can go back and check because i provided the data.

the assumptions made in your text give a gCO~2~/kWh figure of about half the IEA's, where's that from? also, the emissions numbers of your fossil fuels engines are way off. assuming a fuel consumption of 10l/100km, the number for a petrol car would be 230g CO~2~/km rather than 150. also you're mixing your units a lot.

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Well, there is a good chance the data is distorted for fossil interests. It's from 2021 too!

2025 vehicles are miles ahead! (Literally).

They have those solid-state batteries that charge in 5 minutes. There is the lightyear prototype that was insanely expensive...but it could run for decades given optimal light, and 40km/h or bellow speed with it's solar panels.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

source is polestar and rivian, as noted in the graphic.

solid-state batteries are not yet viable at vehicle scale.

lightyear went bankrupt in 2023.

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Oh, nice....

That's what I get for forgetting we live in Warhammer 2k

[–] primrosepathspeedrun@anarchist.nexus 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

We could always stop doing that.

[–] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

[–] primrosepathspeedrun@anarchist.nexus 2 points 1 day ago

Yeah. I know. But we could, and must always be vigilant against those who would like to suck less.

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 3 points 1 day ago

I'm struggling just to earn enough breathing space to think. I need a lot of time, and I dreamed of self-sufficiency for a while now. Even have my own Lemmy idea related to Solarpunk.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 2 points 1 day ago

yeah we can't have nice things

[–] idiomaddict@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I got a 2019 used nissan leaf in 2020 (the lessee didn’t like it), but it looked new. My coworkers tripped over themselves to tell me that the production of a vehicle is worse for the planet anyway. Then, when I explained that it was used, they all responded that the electricity was probably dirty anyway. I charged it at the company garage or at my town’s public spots, both of which were solar powered.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

You always get FUD about EVs from people who don't like the idea that they might be responsible for unnecessarily harming the planet and their neighbours through their actions and would far rather believe that you're just as bad as them. It's BoTh sIdES but for polluters.

[+] rising_man@lemmy.world -6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

My old petrol car consumes 4.5L/100km. New Hybrid EVs consume 4.5L/100km because it takes a lot to move the heavy hybrid system.

Solution: I use public transport a lot unless I can't. That's my hybrid mode of transport.

[–] Grimy@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Public transport is always king but you are also supposed to plug in the hybrid vehicle.

[–] skisnow@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 day ago

Also they're blatantly not comparing like for like.

For example, the Toyota Yaris has a petrol-only version that get 4.6 to 5.8L/100km, whereas the (non-plugin) hybrid version of the exact same car gets 3.8L/100km, so all this guff about "it takes a lot to move the heavy hybrid system" is clearly FUD.

solarpunk memes