393
Ocasio-Cortez Loses the Democratic Socialists’ Endorsement Over Israel
(www.nytimes.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2024
393 points (87.4% liked)
politics
19097 readers
4526 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Can I just say FUCK The Democratic Socialists of America, those scumbags can eat a bag of dicks.
Just look at their stances, views, and activities:
They have ALWAYS simped for all the dictators and authoritarian regimes. They have always had the most brain dead stances on foreign policy issues. They subscribe to a colossal failure of an ideology, and their interests are not with the US succeeding. They are nothing more than assets of our foreign adversaries.
The organization and movement at large is nothing more than the far left and the most whacko of Bernie Supporters that even he is uncomfortable with. I'm glad AOC went from being a fringe extremist politician to becoming more pragmatic and moderate. She has been winning me over more and more lately, and this just proves that she's moving in the right direction. Once again, the DSA can get fucked.
Well, yeah, they're socialists. Why shouldn't they want to abolish capitalism and establish socialism? There's nothing vile about that.
The dissolution of the state of Israel. Their worldview understands it as a settler-colonial ethnostate, just like former apartheid South Africa was. Jews, Christians, Muslims and others co-existed in Palestine before the Zionist state of Israel was established, the two-state situation is segregation caused by the establishment of a Zionist regime.
That is a perfectly-appropriate time to rally support. They are pro-Palestinian and wanted to make it clear that people believed the resistance was supported, regardless of whether they are critical of the methods. The mass media gets to have its voice immediately, so rallies should not wait either.
Yes. Democratic socialists are not capitalists and would not consider liberal democracy (especially the US version!) a working form of democracy, and don't consider social capitalist parties within it to be effective because they must work within a broken system. Social democracy is a false hope to them.
Most socialists will understand the US as a settler-colonial imperialist state from day 1, so yes, their interests are ultimately that the US (as we know it) should stop being imperial terrorists that most of the world (including state allies) hate. But to call that being "nothing more than assets of our foreign adversaries" is ignorant of the very real and growing discontent with the US's own borders. A lot of US citizens hate the US governments and how they work, and to blame that on foreign adversaries will ultimately prevent them from being solved and prevent their numbers growing.
"A vote for Bart is a vote for anarchy!"
Heh, it's poetry.
No, that in itself is vile. The reason why neo Nazis are despised is because they subscribe to a hateful, idealist, and tyrannical ideology that ended up failing every time it was tried and has killed tens of millions of people. There's another idealist ideology that also got popular around the same time, but had the same fate of failure, tyranny, and resulted in the deaths of tens of millions... what was that ideology again? Oh that's right, it's Marxist socialism. You're not morally superior to fascists, you're just as trash as them. If Marxist socialists had a similar movement in size and influence to Trump and MAGA and were in a position to win, the sane majority would be just as terrified, and rightfully so.
"We stand against genocide!!! ...but not that one, that one is okay"
This is the type of ignorance that I expect from Marxists. Israel and Palestine are both artificial states created around the same time. There has literally never been a moment in human history where a sovereign state called Palestine existed. Before the current states Israel and Palestine, there was the British Mandate that was arbitrarily drawn... just like the British and French did with the rest of the region. Before that, it was the Turkish Ottoman Empire, and they had completely different divisions of the region. Before that, it was the Egyptian Malmuk Empire, and they also had their own divisions of the region. The same thing goes for the Ayyubid Caliphate, the Abbasid Caliphate, and the crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem... but at that point we've gone back 1000 years. This narrative that you cling to is not true.
Ukraine just got invaded, quick, hold a pro-Russian rally. What? ISIS just massacred a Yezidi village? I guess it's a perfectly appropriate time to hold a pro ISIS rally. Hmm, Al Qaeda appears to have launched planes into buildings in New York, I guess it'll be wise to stand solidarity with the islamist resistence.
Because why be principled and stand with victims against senseless violence when we can be a brain dead ideologue who's pro terrorism and genocide when it suits your ideological goals and anti terrorism and genocide when it doesn't? If you ever wondered why the far left never seems to get a foothold anywhere, this is why.
What kind of a heartless ghoul do you have to be to support the Oct 7th terrorist attacks against innocent civilians?
Of course, of course. I mean why would you ever support a pragmatic ideology that has consciously proven to be a success to those who have tried it and has resulted in the freest, most democratic, and most prosperous societies in human history when you can support a failed tyrannical ideology that has killed tens of millions? Clearly, with the power of hindsight at our disposal, we can clearly see the latter is a better choice than the former /s.
That's literally the origin of every single country in history. What alternate reality do you live in?
So let me get this straight, you unironically think that America is an illegitimate terrorist state and you're openly working against American interests, and you expect Americans to support you? How dumb do you have to be to think that Americans in America would cheer on for idiots that think their country is evil, illegitimate, and should be destroyed? Not only are these claims false, but you're not really driving home that your ideology is not the result of foreign adversaries.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. When you cheer on for America's adversaries, when you interests are openly against the country, when you conveniently align with foreign adversaries on most things, when you employ tactics like revisionism, propaganda, and double standards to demonize the US but justify, excuse, and downplay America's adversaries doing questionable shit... then your movement is probably a foreign assest.
There are real problems within the country that need to be addressed, however, you're not an alternative or a part of the solution. The far left is a part of the problem. There will never be a day in this country where you will see power, and hopefully the same exact thing is true for the far right. Extremists belong in secluded online echo chambers, not in positions of power.
Imagine defending capitalism and Israel with what's been in the news lately. Boomer mentality.
Marxists: "Here is misinformation to justify destroying Israel and implement a failed tyrannical ideology that killed tens of million of people"
Normal people: "No, can criticize and condemn the actions of the Israeli government while also acknowledging reality and working for a resolution where both Israelis and Palestinians get to coexist peacefully. We can also criticize our economic system and call for actions to improve it with stronger regulations"
You: "What are you? A boomer?"
Israelis and Palestinians can't coexist peacefully while Israel exists in its current state, as an ethnostate focused on settler colonialism. That's like saying normal people want black and whites to get along and also apartheid South Africa should still exist. They can't at the same time, it's fundamentally impossible. Once again, tearing down Israel as it exists doesn't mean hurting any of the people in it (unlike what Israel is doing to the Palestinians). States are just political constructs. You could easily create a new state in that area making up Palestine and Israel called Palestine II: Electric Boogaloo with a new Constitution not based on religion and equal protection under the law, and it would be purely an improvement for everyone who lives there, and yet you're saying that's a bad thing?
Also, Marxism isn't a failed political ideology. There's plenty of states based off it that exist today. Also, capitalism has killed way more than tens of millions of people if you want to base it off every death even slightly in the orbit of a country like that (which is what those huge, ballooned figures usually do). Hell, it's caused the destabilizing of almost every country in the global south, so I'd say it's got an even worse track record of "failed states". It's only held up through imperialism, wars, and coups. For every bad thing you point at one of those countries, an equally bad event can be pointed at a capitalist country, too. Also, it's also still a good framework for analyzing domestic policies and events as well, especially with all the enshittification happening. It's evolved, like any science, but still extremely predictive.
The question one has to ask, if someone is as committed to burying the truth as you, what kind of duck does that make you? A bigot duck?
What truth is buried? You just sound mad because I openly criticize the far left for how shitty they are since you are probably one.
How dare you call me a lefty, take it back now!
You know Stalinism isn't the only type of socialism, right?
The reason the DSA's predecessors added "democratic" to their name was to explicitly say that they're not Stalinists.
That every nation-state is built on a foundation of blood is a fairly common belief among socialists. You are not making the point you think you are. This is particularly blatant in some countries; some don't just have to deal with the effects of a colonialist past, but have a colonialist present. This is why socialists focus so much on the USA and Israel.
Furthermore, the USA's imperialism is the reason it has so many enemies. You treat them as evil demons out to get your country. Many are. But consider for a moment why they became this way. Why do people keep becoming terrorists? Why does reactionary populism hold so much sway over the people of these foreign adversaries?
Social democracy hides the flaws of capitalism under the rug, rather than solving them. The corporations of Sweden treat their workers at home well, it is true. But what of the workers abroad? The Swedish designer gets to sit in a comfy office and earn a great salary designing clothing after going through college for free. The Singaporean sweatshop worker that makes the clothing earns pennies. Under capitalism, one cannot exist without the other. Attempts to implement social democracy in a poor country that relies on plantations and sweatshops seldom go well. You mentioned one example yourself: Venezuela.
I will not excuse the bad takes the DSA have on foreign policy, nor the idealized past where Palestine was a land of perfect harmony that the other guy imagines, because you have a point there. You do not have a point about socialism overall. These people are trying to achieve a better future: one where people truly govern themselves, rather than taking orders from a greedy board of directors or a power-hungry politburo. I don't like their love of electoralism or their position on Ukraine, but they're actually striving for a future we can be proud of. They're not conjuring the vengeful spirit of McCarthy, who sees foreign agents everywhere, nor are they channeling Fukuyama and saying that what we have now is the best there is and the best there ever will be. Can you say the same?
Marxist socialism isn't idealist. In fact, it's one of the few ideologies which isn't idealist. It's based on an scientific economic analysis of capitalism. Contrast this against our current system, liberalism, which is the failed idealization of liberty. Liberalism neglectfully kills hundreds of millions even in developed and politically-stable countries, but it's just normal at this point.
Morality is idealism.
Oh no, they're going to improve life expectancy and stop billionaires wasting all our hard work! The terror!
If anything, you, SleezyDizasta, should want Marxists to be in a position which threatens the ruling parties, because them being threatened is the only way you will ever get any of that big list of reforms you posted, bargaining to try and deradicalize the masses away from unrest. We saw this happen in Western bloc countries near the USSR such as the Nordic countries, considered the most progressive but gradually sinking back in line with the rest of Europe now.
Dissolution doesn't even suggest killing, at all. I don't think you know what words mean.
I was referring to Palestine. Perhaps I should have specifically said 'the region of Palestine' but I didn't want to be condescending by stating the obvious.
How dumb do you have to be to think that most Americans like their governments?
[skipped over a lot of obvious bad-faith bullshit lol]
Marxism:
A scientific analysis that gets basic facts about the structure of property rights in the capitalist system wrong, and uses value theory to critique a property system
Moral arguments can help make people class conscious and recognize their oppression. Morality can motivate people to act, gives them a coherent structure for guiding action, and give direction. Morality is an important tool that enables people to coordinate without authority
@politics
For my own learning (not trying to argue), can you list some of those basic facts of property rights?
Agreed. I wasn't saying morality is pointless or worthless or anything. Even myself, I often 'do the right thing' on impulse rather than reason. I'm pointing out that morality is an idealistic structure, referencing the ironic appeal to morality from someone who was trying to critique Marxism for being an "idealist ideology". Morality is so subjective and unquantifiable it wasn't even worth arguing against their silly comparison.
It is a powerful tool, although I must admit I have serious issues with the most common frameworks of morality I see today, being framed as absolute rules a vacuum. And like you said, moral arguments can have excellent rhetorical power, and moral righteousness is a powerful motivator. The bottom line is, what anti-capitalists try to do fits into most moral frameworks as clearly good, and that's great!
Marx incorrectly cites private property as capitalist appropriation's basis. The employment contract is what enables the employer to appropriate the entire positive and negative result of production. Now, capital ownership does play a role in increasing bargain power to get favorable terms during contract negotiations. By emphasizing value, he missed out on a critique based on property rights. In property terms, the employer gets 100%
Morality can be analyzed in less idealist ways @politics
Holy shit, the democratic socialists of america are socialists
Choose love, not hate:
Yeah, there's pretty big damn difference between MLK fighting for equality during segregation in 1964 and the DSA simping for dictators and helping fascist MAGA win.
Also for the record, NONE of the Scandinavian countries are democratic socialist. Every single one is a capitalist liberal democracy. This idea that any of the Scandinavian countries are anywhere near socialist is misinformation spread by Bernie during his campaigns. The Danish PM at the time even had to address this publicly:
Source: https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist
The word you were looking for is social market economy, you are welcome.
No, the Nordic countries are not socialist of course but with Americans you don't want to get into specifics of socialism because their compass is way off there.
All of these terms apply. The Nordic countries are indeed capitalist, liberal, and democracies. Their version of capitalism is social market economy where capitalism is well regulated and there is a social safety net in place. So you're right, but Bernie calling Denmark democratic socialist was not.
Man I was with you until you suggested abolishing capitalism was a bad thing. Why is that a bad thing?
This person has swallowed so much red scare nonsense it’s impossible to actually engage with them on this topic.
Let me ask you this, why can't we regulate capitalism to work for us? Just think of what we can do:
These are not radical ideas and they're not new, these are all already in place in capitalist societies all around the world. We know they work and we know capitalism works, so why not make it better? Capitalism doesn't have to be this dystopian reality where corporations own everything and everybody else lives in poverty struggling to make ends meet. It could also be this great system that is centered around humanity and works to the benefit of the people. A system where the value of a person matters more than a dollar amount. These ideas aren't antithetical to capitalism. Capitalism is just tool, it's a flexible one too, there's nothing stopping us from shaping it to serve us and our values. Why not pursue that instead of trying to pursue some an ideology that has literally failed? After so many attempts, so many failures, so many people killed, when is it time to move on? Marxist socialism isn't the way forward, it's a way of the past.
Because Warren Buffet wasn't joking when he said:
"There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."
He also wasn't attempting to raise awareness of the issue as evidenced by his disowning his granddaughter when she did try to raise awareness of the issue by being interviewed for the documentary The 1% by one of the Johnson kids.
They won't allow us to regulate them, and have each killed hundreds of millions of us so far. I believe the phrase is believe someone when they tell you who they are, these people are unrepentant murderers, thieves, and environmental terrorists at an unprecedented level. They woke up and chose violence, we can only choose self defense at this point.
Because all that is absolute and total fantasy. Capitalism does not allow for any of it. And even if you can succeed temporarily and installing any of it capitalism will find the crack and destroy it. You're trying to fight against the nature of a thing. The absolute core tenant capitalism is the exploitation and enslavement of the working class. The only incentive, only, is more short-term profit. That's it. Anyone who thinks you can do anything else is dreaming. Capitalism is incapable of surviving in a pluralistic society. Capital is incapable of adjusting to the needs of a society as a whole. Capitalism is incapable of taking into account the needs of the many versus the needs of the single. You cannot fight against that, that's its purpose.
There is a reason that capitalism tends to lead to fascism.
Making life less shitty through policy is an act of solidarity.
How does the laundry list not include the prerequisite to achieving all that: the people seizing the means of producing and distributing media. The medium holds us captive.
Because the employing class and their political power won't let us.
Capitalism denies people their humanity and treats people like things. For example, 1 test for whether a system recognizes people's humanity is whether or not it holds them responsible for the positive and/or negative results of their action. Capitalism fails there because it holds the employer solely legally responsible for workers' joint de facto actions in the workplace.
Marxism is not the only alternative @politics
That sure is a lot of claims without one single source for any of them.
Everything I said can be found either on their own website or their wiki page:
https://www.dsausa.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialists_of_America
Go on hexbear and ask them
Why do y'all hate
evidenceso much?Lmao bro just found out about leftist politics and is PISSED
No, the far left has always been vile, but the DSA is especially annoying because they actively hurt the Democrats and help the Republicans.
Reactionary.
Because Democrats are not leftists, they routinely sell-out their leftist constituents and their policy goals in favor of maintaining the status-quo (e.g. reactionary - see
's comment)
Any genuine socialist/leftist can recognize the democratic party is adversarial - of course they are going to be antagonistic toward them. That they recognize or support any democratic representatives is amazing, frankly.
None of the things you mentioned are why they withdrew the endorsement of AOC. Your entire comment is strawmen of why you don't like them. They compromised with AOC on all the points you stated above... and then AOC went on to support literal Genocide and Apartheid.
Yeah supporting Genocide to advance in politics like a real "pragmatic moderate" liberal. Imagine praising this level of snakery.
This is such a disingenuous argument.
A socialist endorsing the only candidate capable of defeating a fascist in November is not "endorsing genocide" just because the candid she endorsed in weak on Israel.
If there was another candidate she could endorse that both had a chance of beating Trump and was sufficiently anti-Israel, I too would be critical of her choice to endorse Biden, but he is literally the only acceptable option she has available.
Trump has promised to provide more support to Israel with fewer restrictions on how they can use the weapons we give them, so if you're earnestly trying to minimize damage to the Palestinian people, your primary goal has to be to keep Trump out of the White House.
If you care more about getting the perfect progressive candidate, and are willing to go scorched earth over it and let Trump win just to send a message, you can drop the act about caring about progressive things, because Israel will completely flatten Gaza without opposition, and we're probably going to start genociding homeless and queer people here at home too.
So remember that, after the election is over, we will remember who voted for and against Fascism, and l "not voting for Trump" isn't going to be enough to protect you.
AOC fully supported the Genocide for multiple months under the classic "israel has the right to defend itself", only started turning around when it was time for her elections.
She recently invited ADL ZIonists on her live stream to push AIPAC propaganda and agreed with them, which is what is stated as the final straw that broke the camel's back.
Now she advocates for Genocide Joe for no apparent reason when even the establishment Democrats are trying to push him out for another candidate.
"This is such a disingenuous argument." btw.
I'm an AOC supporter, here's the thing: She demonstrates a separation of Jewish people and Israel government. I support that. In addition, I noticed that Israelis can't seem to tell attacks on Israel from uninvolved people is more directed at government. I always knew attacks on US were directed at government in Bush era.
Plenty of Jewish people can tell apart attacks on the Israel government are not attacks on Jewish people.
Yes, I know. In my experience, it is usually assumed that attacks on Israel means the non-government entities are targeted too. I had to explain to them about about separation, and hell, I even separate leadership of IDF from lower ranks.
I'm pointing out why the DSA is a shitty organization and movement, them turning on AOC is merely another example.
Also, you're not principled, and neither are they. They unironically support genocide against Israel and against Ukraine, they're just picking and choosing which genocides to support. Not to mention, that AOC has the most reasonable stance on the war imaginable. She condemns the actions of the Israeli government, she condemns the actions of the Palestinian groups, and she wants them to work towards of a ceasefire and a hostage release for the benefit of the people.
You can go live in your delusional world where Trump is elected and is giving the Netanyahu his full support for Israel to fully annex the West Bank and Gaza, but hey at least you stuck it to the Democrats and stood by your anti-pragmatic politics. As for the rest of us? We're still grounded in reality where Trump is still the biggest threat to our democracy.
I see that your knowledge of DSA is liberal propaganda talking points. Creating strawmen and ad-hominems out of thin air is a skill to behold.
"Everything I don't like is liberal propaganda"
Nah, lying is propaganda. You are making shit up. They don't believe in a genocide against Israel or Ukraine.