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submitted 1 day ago by jeffw@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world
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[-] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 22 minutes ago* (last edited 13 minutes ago)

https://philosophyterms.com/paradox-of-tolerance/

There is a concept called the paradox of tolerance. In order for a society to be tolerant, it needs to accept all people. However, there are people who are intolerant. If society accepts them, they will have to elevate the speech of the intolerant which means incorporating intolerance into society. If society rejects them, they will have to be intolerant to a group of people which means incorporating intolerance into society. The paradox seems unsolvable until it is reframed.

https://conversational-leadership.net/tolerance-is-a-social-contract/

Rather than tolerance being a straight jacket it is instead a contract or peace treaty. As long as everyone is tolerant to each other everything is fine. As soon as a group chooses to be intolerant, they have breached the agreement. This means the intolerant group is no longer protected by the agreement. The rest of society no longer has to tolerate the intolerant group. Nor should they, because to do so would be to condone intolerance against members of society. The society as a whole remains tolerant because all the rest of the groups practice tolerance to each other.

https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-gender-affirming-care

Gender affirming care involves helping trans people, both youths and adults, to transition to their gender identity through the use of therapy, puberty blockers, and hormone therapy. It is lifesaving care. Unsubstantiated attacks to gender affirming care are a threat to the lives of all trans people. Threatening the lives of people with a disinformation campaign is a breach of the social contract of tolerance. When fascists attempt to spread life-threatening disinformation campaigns, people at all levels of society should stand up to them.

This woman did the right thing. She put human life and liberty over the mail. Standing up to fascists doesn't always mean punching Nazis. It means seeing intolerance for what it is and refusing to tolerate it. We may all find ourselves in similar situations sooner rather than later. We should all seek to emulate this woman.

https://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/harm-principle

To be as clear as possible, banning gender affirming care will put trans people in a life threatening situation. So this disinformation campaign to ban gender affirming care, if successful, can only lead to putting trans people in a life threatening situation. A person's freedoms should not extend to the point where they are free to harm other people. Disinformation that can only harm a group of people should not be protected speech.

I know this topic can be contentious as the mail is an essential service for many people. And I'm aware not everyone is familiar with trans issues. I spoke up because I saw people falling into a common trap. Standing up to fascists doesn't make us fascists. Freedom of speech rests on the foundation of the truth. If we tolerate lies, elevating them to the same status as the truth, we undermine free speech. My hope is that people will see this was not a moral disagreement. This was a strategic decision to defend a group's right to exist, that did not infringe on anyone else's freedoms. The right of an apolitical, uninterrupted mail service should not supersede a group's right to exist. edit: updated the third link edit: typo

[-] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 10 points 1 hour ago

Tolerance may end with Intolerance, but idk how I feel about postal workers having the right to decide what does and does not get mailed.

[-] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 4 minutes ago

We should all have the right to reject intolerance. Otherwise we will not have a society that is capable of tolerating anyone. This wasn't a personal letter. It was a targeted disinformation campaign designed to ban lifesaving medical treatments. The disinformation campaign infringed on a group of people's right to exist.

[-] crashfrog@sopuli.xyz 12 points 2 hours ago

It’s good actually that the mail doesn’t censor based on viewpoint

[-] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 minute ago

A disinformation campaign designed to ban lifesaving medical treatments isn't a viewpoint we need to respect. The success of such of a campaign would deny trans people the fundamental right to exist.

[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 11 points 2 hours ago

People can refuse to bake a cake for a gay couple.

People get punished for not delivering hate mail.

Why is it so easy for hatred to do things but so hard for decency to push back?

[-] jaemo@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 hour ago

Because typically "decency" doesn't use a 2x4 with nails driven through it to get the point across...

🎵 but the taaaahms they are a chaaaaangin' 🎶

[-] MehBlah@lemmy.world 26 points 4 hours ago

I don't disagree in therory but there is no way we can let postal workers have a say in what they can or cannot deliver. Fire them for doing it and move on.

[-] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 10 minutes ago

We should not fire people for standing up to fascism.

[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 13 points 4 hours ago

While I sympathize… That's fair. Same as the people working in pharmacies and refusing to hand out birth control. If you have moral qualms about your job, find another job.

[-] tee9000@lemmy.world 4 points 3 hours ago

People in this thread: sensible

[-] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 11 minutes ago

This kind of discourse always seems sensible until it is about the lifesaving medical care of people you know.

i assume there are federal laws on delivering mail to people, considering that like. That shits important sometimes.

[-] Egg_Egg@lemm.ee 1 points 2 hours ago

If I had this flyer delivered to me I'd use my reasoning skills to bin it, maybe mock it first. Seems silly not to deliver it. It's only going to be read by the already bigoted. Any sensible individual knows what to do with it.

[-] Facebones@reddthat.com 23 points 11 hours ago

I'm just here to watch people who cheered and defended the lady who wouldn't marry a gay couple suddenly care about government employees doing their job regardless of opinion.

[-] NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

I agree but this logic cuts both ways.

The people that disliked the courthouse lady shouldn't be too surprised or upset now that the shoe's on the other foot.

[-] Facebones@reddthat.com 3 points 5 hours ago

No I still believe actions have consequences, I'm saying either they do or they don't and people who want to play it both ways need to STFU.

However, while of course you can't police what goes out in an envelope, I don't think these materials should have been allowed to ship. Of course, while they say little Billy knowing the 2 guys next door are in love is too much for his fragile little brain the "won't someone think of the kids" crowd don't bat an eye at little Billy running down to the mailbox and pulling out a fearmongering postcard about genital mutilation.

[-] phoenixz@lemmy.ca -2 points 3 hours ago

Devil's advocate for a second here: do we all remember the baker that refused to make some LGBT wedding cake? He was crucified for that, so hateful, etc. But in basics, this is the same thing. Yes, the flyers are hateful, but that is not her job to determine or judge that. I get her issue with it for sure, but there is more than just her opinion.

If she can refuse to deliver this, then that baker can refuse to do an LGBT cake and love happily with that decision.

[-] TheLowestStone@lemmy.world 5 points 2 hours ago

The difference is that one of them is officially acting on behalf of the federal government and one is just a bigoted private citizen.

The postal worker has violated federal law and should be held accountable legally.

The baker is a shitty person and was publicly called out for it but not legally punished.

[-] Trainguyrom@reddthat.com 1 points 2 hours ago

I think the postal service is technically some weird in-between where its neither fully a part of the federal government but also not fully a wholly owned subsidiary of the federal government

[-] TheLowestStone@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago

That is correct. While not employed by the federal government, they do deliver the mail on behalf of the government and there are federal laws against obstructing the delivery of that mail.

[-] DancingBear@midwest.social 1 points 2 hours ago

Only congress is limited in the first amendment, other branches of government do it all the time

[-] dubious@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago

the problem legally is that the post office is a federal institution and the bakery is a private business.

however, if i remember correctly, there was a woman who worked for a state office that was refusing to do gay marriage certificates and she got away with it.

i don't know. laws are stupid to begin with which is why i say ignore them and do what's right.

[-] Trainguyrom@reddthat.com 3 points 2 hours ago

I believe you're thinking of this peice of work: https://apnews.com/general-news-cf28301d7af44fa38bb29dddd4d5e1c2

Looks like she was not allowed to refuse to grant licenses, served jail time for the stunt and since then has received eye-watering legal bills and damages for her antics. I imagine as a county employee she wasn't wealthy enough to pay 300k+ in damages and fees very easily, although maybe she was clever enough to be able to spin a lucrative book or speaking deal from the situation

[-] dubious@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

yup. that's her. see you next tuesday!

[-] A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 57 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago)

I understand where they are coming from, but its not their job to dictate what mail gets delivered.

and it opens the door for right wingers to do the same if they do not get serious punishment for this.

[-] rami@ani.social 15 points 11 hours ago

Yeah like I agree with the thought but the mail is kinda sacred.

[-] A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 5 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

yep. Don't fuck with the mail.

Especially in the times we are in right now.

Which is why these carriers, as much as I sympathize with not wanting to deal with the hateful messages, need to be punished severely and swiftly.

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this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2024
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