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submitted 1 year ago by Cabrio@lemmy.world to c/games@lemmy.world

Larion Studios forum stores your passwords in unhashed plaintext. Don't use a password there that you've used anywhere else.

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[-] Dremor@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hello, c/Games mod here.

This post has been reviewed as valid by the mod team

For everyone infosec culture, hashing and salting password consist in using one-way mathematical functions to encrypt passwords. It is a very commonly used security practice to make it more difficult for an attacker that was able to steal a database to obtain the password. As the website is unable to decrypt said password (thank to the one way mathematical function), the only way to send you back your password in this manner is to have it unhashed and unsalted in his database.

But

In the current case, this is a registration email, which may have been sent before the initial hashing and salting. In this case we cannot say for sure if Larion Studios indeed have unhashed and unsalted password in his database.

[-] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 150 points 1 year ago

That doesn't really mean that they store it in plain text. They sent it to you after you finished creating your account, and it's likely that the password was just in plain text during the registration. The question still remains whether they store their outgoing emails (in which case yes, your password would still be stored in plain text on their end, not in the database though).

[-] ono@lemmy.ca 106 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Your guess is confirmed here.

There are plans to update the forum, including for better security (the main issue with changing the forum software is concern over reliably migrating all of the existing content). After emailing (admittedly not current best practice), the passwords are hashed and only the hash is stored.

...and later...

The forum has been updated to https, and passwords are no longer being sent by email.

Which raises the question of how old OP's screen shot is.

Also, no, the password would not necessarily still be stored in plain text on their end. The cleartext password used in that email might be only in memory, and discarded after sending the message. Depends on how the UBB forum software implemented it and how Larian's mail servers are set up.

EDIT: I just verified that this behavior has resurfaced since it was originally fixed. OP would do well to responsibly report it, rather than stirring up drama over a web forum account.

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[-] trustnoone@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 1 year ago

I actually think this is the case. I could be completely wrong but I swear I saw the same question like 6 years ago in another forum software that looks exactly like this one lol. And people compalined about it storing plain text, but the response when asking the forum people was that it was only during that password creation, it's not actually stored.

I don't know if it's crazy for me to think it's the same forum from that many years ago, still doing the same thing and getting the same question.

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[-] lowleveldata@programming.dev 90 points 1 year ago

Don’t use a password ~~there~~ that you’ve used anywhere else

Just get a password manager already

[-] Ledivin@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I just wanted to drop a reminder that both LastPass and Norton LifeLock have been hacked within the past year alone.

[-] neatchee@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

And here's a reminder that trusting centralized service with high security access control is usually a bad idea.

I stay away from LastPass for the same reasons I stay away from TeamViewer. Security through obscurity on top of decoupling my security interests from others means other people being attacked is much less likely to cause me harm at the same time

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[-] nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 64 points 1 year ago

That's very unlikely. It's running UBB Threads, which, from what I can tell, has an auth subsystem, which au minimum would do hashing. If it's providing you with a default at sign-up, that's different and is what appears to be a configurable setting.

If it is completely generated for you, here's what probably happening:

  1. User creation module runs a password generator and stores this and the username in memory as string variables.
  2. User creation module calls back to storage module to store new user data in db, including the value of the generated password var.
  3. Either the storage module or another middleware module hashes the password while preparing to store.
  4. Storage module reports success to user creation.
  5. User creation module prints the vars to the welcome template and unloads them from memory.

TL;DR as this is running on a long-established commercial php forum package, with DB storage, it is incredibly unlikely that the password is stored in the DB as plaintext. At most it is likely stored in memory during creation. I cannot confirm, however, as it is not FOSS.

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[-] vox@sopuli.xyz 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

no, they probably dont.
they just send it to your email upon registration, which is kinda a bad idea, but they are probably storing passwords hashed afterwards.

[-] Mirodir@discuss.tchncs.de 24 points 1 year ago

...and if they keep the emails they send out archived (which would be reasonable), they also have it stored in plaintext there.

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[-] TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

So it's in plaintext in their email system

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[-] dangblingus@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

I've literally never had a service provider email me my own password ever. Maybe a OTP, but never my actual password. And especially not in plaintext.

What would be the necessity behind emailing someone their own password? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a password? Email isn't secure.

[-] wim@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 1 year ago

I find that very hard to believe. While it is less common nowadays, many, if not most, mailing list and forum software sent passwords in plaintext in emails.

A lot of cottage industry web apps also did the same.

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[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 11 points 1 year ago

"Kinda a bad idea?" This is fucking insane.

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[-] darkkite@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago

this is still a terrible idea. the system should never know the plaintext password.

logs capture a lot even automated emails. i don't see a single reason to send the user their plaintext password and many reasons why they shouldn't

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[-] tb_@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

But that still means they had your plaintext password at some point.

Edit: which, as some replies suggest, may not actually be much of an issue.
I'm still skeptical about them returning it, however.

[-] vox@sopuli.xyz 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

hashing on client side is considered a bad idea and almost never done.
you actually send your password "in plain text" every time you sign up.

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[-] hperrin@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago

You can also tell if a site does this when they have seemingly arbitrary restrictions on passwords that are actually database text field restrictions.

Especially if they have a maximum password length. The maximum password length should be just the maximum length the server will accept, because it should be hashed to a constant length before going into the database.

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[-] jonne@infosec.pub 48 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Sending your password right after you created it might not be best practice, but it doesn't mean it's stored unhashed in the database. It looks like they're using a third party forum software, so it should be pretty straightforward to figure out whether they do or not.

Looks like they address it here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=669268#Post669268

[-] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

it should be pretty straightforward to figure out whether they do or not

Not really since it's closed-source: https://www.ubbcentral.com/

But they seem to have been in business since 1997, so I highly doubt that they'd fuck up the "never store passwords in plain text" rule.

[-] jonne@infosec.pub 11 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I was looking it up, and when I saw they've been selling this forum software since 1997 I was less confident about passwords being hashed. They address it in their forums and they're making it clear that the passwords are actually hashed, and they're looking at migrating to other solutions regardless.

[-] mosiacmango@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago

That thread is from 2020, where they said they fixed the password send issue.

Op, how old is ths image above?

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[-] inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

While sending your password in plaintext over email is very much a bad idea and a very bad practice, it doesn't mean they store your password in their database as plaintext.

[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 31 points 1 year ago

Encrypted passwords are still an unacceptable way to store passwords. They should be hashed.

[-] Cloodge@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

(and salted before hashing.)

[-] Dicska@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

And marinated in butter milk.

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[-] jeeva@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Would you accept "in a way that can be reversed"?

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[-] 1984@lemmy.today 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's 2023, I really hope people are not using the same password in multiple places. Password managers solved this problem a decade ago. Use one, with multi factor auth on important sites like email.

[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 10 points 1 year ago

There are people who purposely forget their passwords, so they use the "forgot my password" link every time they need to login.

Hard to hack them.

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[-] Krakatoacoo@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

For those who haven't made accounts yet, you don't actually have to make an account to play Larian Studios games.

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this post was submitted on 28 Sep 2023
305 points (75.0% liked)

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