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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by rehydrate5503@lemmy.world to c/selfhosted@lemmy.world

Hi everyone,

I’m not sure if this is the right community, but the home networking magazines seem to be pretty dead. I’m a bit green with regard to networking, and am looking for help to see if the plan I’ve come up with will work.

The main image in the post is my current network setup. Basically the ISP modem/router is just a pass through and the 10 Gb port is connected to my Asus router, which has the DHCP server activated. All of my devices, home lab and smart home devices are connected to the Asus router via either Wifi or Ethernet. This works well, but I have many neighbours close by, and with my 30+ wifi devices, I think things aren’t working as well as they could be. I guess you could say one of my main motivations to start messing with this is to clean it up and move all possible devices to Ethernet.

The planned new setup is as follows, but I’m not sure if it’s even possible to function this way.

https://i.postimg.cc/7YftSFt6/IMG-9281.jpg

ISP modem/router > 2.5 Gb unmanaged switch > 2.5 Gb capable devices (NAS, hypervisor, PCs) will connect directly here, along with a 1 Gb managed switch to handle the DHCP > Asus router would connect to the managed switch to provide wifi, and remaining wired devices will all connect to the managed switch as well.

Any assistance would be appreciated! Thanks!

Edit: fixed second image url

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[-] istdaslol@feddit.de 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The main issue is your 30+ Wi-Fi devices. One AP can only handle this much total bandwidth. But first, it looks like you waste 2gb of your fibre speed? Get a compatible router.

For your setup it almost looks like you’re better off with a total 10gb internal speed. And get 2 more AP, one dedicated for your smart home, one for „less important devices“ and use the ASUS for the rest. - remember to use different channels on each AP.

So in short hook your HV,NAS,PC,[new router w/ AP?],[AP2],[AP3],[AP1?] on a new 10GB switch. Split your devices over the 3 AP, on different channels

Edit: or you could get one of those for cheaper „Qnap QSW-M2108R-2C“ That is a 2.5G with two additional 10G ports so you could plug your new router into one of them and use the other for later use of the NAS if it supports that speed

[-] mhz@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

OP needs a proper router that make use of their 3g fiber which will be mostly newer and powerfull and has better wifi. That should be their 1st priority.

Edit: You don't need a 2.5gb ethernet (or better for futur proofing) for every client, but that NAS and Hypervisor could use that bandwith so consider yor options while you are at it.

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I could definitely use the ISP router as well, and just add a 2.5/10G switch, but it is very limiting and when I first tried it, it would reset my settings every time the IP changed (anywhere from 1 week to 1 day). I definitely want the NAS, HV and my main PC on a faster connection.

You can always use your current router as an AP and use an x86 pc with 10gbe or 2.5gb network card(s) as your main router (or even a switch)

[-] ErwinLottemann@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

proper access points support 30+ clients without any problem (I doubt that the advertised number of 300 clients holds up for unifi aps, but 30 is definitely not a problem), especially for low traffic clients like iot devices.

why op gives up 2gbps from his 3gbps line is a mystery to me though...

[-] MeanEYE@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Technically they can handle 300 clients, if none of them are talking. With any wireless communication, only one device can talk at a time, maybe two if sending and receiving works on different frequency, which WIFI is not. So no matter what manufacturer says, on 2.4GHz, fewer clients can talk because bandwidth is lower and sending/receiving packets takes time. Whenever possible, stay away from WIFI. The more you use it, the worse it will get.

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

This is my understanding as well, and why I prefer to get away from wifi for any device that can be wired. My neighbourhood has houses so close I could shake hands with my neighbours through a window, and they all have lots of wifi devices, so interference is inevitable.

[-] MeanEYE@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Purely technically speaking you can fit all of wireless bands into a single fiber optic and have room to spare. Then you can run fiber in parallel.

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

The 3Gbps line is new to me, just upgraded from 1.5 as it was only $5 more per month, so I’m looking at how to actually utilize this now, not actively “giving up” 2Gbps 🙂. I also didn’t have any devices that could take advantage of it until some upgrades, so here we are.

[-] maxprime@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Is it necessary to dedicate a WAP to IoT, etc? I would recommend setting up separate SSIDs and connect each to their own VLAN, and each VLAN a subnet. And have each WaP broadcast each SSID and have the router handle the traffic routing. That way WAPs are dedicated to the devices that they are near, not the devices they are assigned to.

[-] istdaslol@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago

Since VLAN isn’t officially part of the standard, you’d need all your network devices support it. And I wanted to give a device-load-balance. So not increase coverage but reduce the amount of devices per AP. Separate SSIDs and VLAN aren’t helping that it just makes it easier to track, wich group is causing the load

[-] dan@upvote.au 3 points 1 year ago

Since VLAN isn’t officially part of the standard

VLANs are a standard: 802.1Q. Your client devices don't have to support it, just your switches, routers, and access points. On a switch, you can configure each port to treat untagged data as part of a particular VLAN. Similarly, with a good wi-fi access point, you can add multiple SSIDs each of which is on a different VLAN.

[-] istdaslol@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago

You’re right. I just gave a very simplified answer. VLAN isn’t part of the default network communication and therefore every „node“ needs to support it and be correctly set up, or otherwise the VLAN tag will be removed at that point.

And in my other comment I emphasized, that my main issue with multiple WAP is, to distribute the amount of devices each has to talk to. Multi SSID wouldn’t solve that

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Since none of my devices support 10Gb, that would get real expensive, real fast to add 5 10Gb NICs and a 10Gb switch/router. I was actually looking at the QNAP 2.5Gb switches. There are also some no-name brand unmanaged switches like Mokerlink and Nicgiga, that are well reviewed. Some have 8 x 2.5Gb and 1 or 2 x 10Gb SFP ports. I could have one of those plus a 16 port TP-Link managed switch for about $220 CAD all in, and the HV, NAS and PCs all support 2.5Gb already so no additional expense there.

Just a question of whether the way I laid it out will work or not.

[-] Alexstarfire@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

You wouldn't need that many 10Gb devices. Just one(s) that split up the traffic to other devices. Either the ISP router needs to split it up or the device that does the splitting should be 10Gb. If you go with 2.5Gb youll be losing 0.5Gb, assuming you actually get 3Gb from your ISP.

The intent isn't to get 10Gb to every device, but to actually be able to use the full 3Gb you're paying for. Right now it looks like you're wasting 2Gb of your bandwidth because everything goes through your personal router which is limited to 1Gb.

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Hmm that’s true. I’ve been researching used enterprise 10Gb SFP switches after one of the comments and I think that’s the way to go. And yes, in the tests I’ve ran on the ISP router, I get the full advertised speed. Can’t test above 1Gb on the other devices, but even through a VPN it averages 0.9Gb down/up.

I get it. I’ve actually only recently upgraded to the 3Gb plan because it was only another $5 per month over the 1.5Gb plan I had, so just trying to sort out next steps. Probably should have mentioned that in my post ☺️. I will definitely leave the PCs that are used for browsing/basic gaming/yt on 2.5, no need to change anything there as I doubt they will ever saturate 1Gb. After some of the posts here and more research, I definitely want the NAS and my main PC on 10Gb, and it should only cost a little more than planned. The HV uses a USB 3.0 Ethernet adapter, but I see there are some 5Gb ones available that will double the bandwidth.

[-] SteveTech@programming.dev 3 points 1 year ago

Also 10G is really cheap if you go with used SFP+ gear. Like I've got a managed 48x 1G + 4x 10G Dell switch I got for AU$78 running my network. The NICs are about US$40 used, ConnectX3s seem the cheapest, I usually use Intel X520s which are a little more (watch out for clones though).

For the accessories: DACs are AU$20 new from fs.com, and because you'll probably need ethernet for that router, a 10GBaseT transceiver is AU$90 new off eBay. Those you could probably buy cheaper used too.

Additionally you wouldn't be adding 10G to all your devices, I'd just definitely do between your router so you can have 3 1G devices maxing out your 3Gb internet, and maybe add it to a server or two.

And if you do your own runs, in my experience, fibre is slightly cheaper for the longer runs than CAT6 itself too.

[-] PuppyOSAndCoffee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

from a diagramming pov, remember to document the link speed at each end as well as the ethernet cable type. if your cable modem supports 10GB I would really really look at 10GB network devices pretty closely, budget allowing. I would steer cleared of managed, it's just a PIA for your setup.

You might want to experiment with modem <-> switch <-> wifi vs (modem <-> wifi <-> switch). remember wifi is just ethernet. so the order may or may not matter as much (vendor gets a vote). there does not appear to be a reason to march ethernet cable traffic thru the wifi router, but maybe there is???

def agree an 8 port switch might be better for you, use a 5 to split a single cable at a single location (say, tv + game console + speaker combo)

Remember if you need a WiFi mesh (multi access-point) to connect your devices, if possible, link the mesh backplane together via ethernet cable so that you don't chew half the speed with wi-fi backplane chatter.

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Oh that’s a good point about the diagram. I just threw these together real quick to help show what I mean. Yes the ISP hardware gives me a 10Gb RJ45. I’ve been researching 10Gb networking today and I think that’s the play. How come you think a managed switch would be a pain? Just from a setup perspective?

Modem <-> switch <-> wifi router is what I was thinking to do as in my second diagram, with the wifi router handling the DHCP, but now you have me thinking if that makes sense at all.

So the 5 port switch I have does exactly what you say, but the area is also in a spot where I have easy access and can add a couple more LAN drops in a matter of minutes.

Good tip, if I add an AP I will definitely wire them together. Thanks!

[-] Decronym@lemmy.decronym.xyz 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:

Fewer Letters More Letters
AP WiFi Access Point
IP Internet Protocol
IoT Internet of Things for device controllers
NAS Network-Attached Storage
NAT Network Address Translation
PIA Private Internet Access brand of VPN
VPN Virtual Private Network

7 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 8 acronyms.

[Thread #202 for this sub, first seen 9th Oct 2023, 02:25] [FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]

[-] Boring@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Looks like it'll work. You should look into flashing that router with openwrt or pfsense and VLANing off those smart devices.. They can be a security issue.

Also adding a second AP that you place on a different channel for guest and untrusted devices would work and increase bandwidth, but adds some routing complexity.

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

The router runs Asuswrt-Merlin, but unfortunately the RT-86U doesn’t provide VLANs with Merlin, and there is no openwrt port for it.

You think it should work though with the router being placed after the switch and handling DHCP?

[-] Boring@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ooookay.. Took me a second to wrap my head around the layout.. Originally I only looked at the picture, which only shows a single switch.

This is an odd topography. Typically when working with switches, you want them connecting directly to the router and not connected to another switch.

You are going to have bandwidth issues out the ass, along with having a troubleshooting nightmare when something goes wrong and you need to trace packets.

Right now you have a hub and a spoke inside a hub and spoke.

Since it looks like your Asus is just an AP in this scenario, you'd be better off:

  • hooking both switches to the ISP router
  • enabling DHCP on the ISP router for the 2.5g switch
  • set your 1g switch to a different subnet, with default gateway to your ISP router
  • enable dhcp for different subnet
  • add Asus for WiFi ability on new subnet

You can then play around with VLANing on the managed switch. You won't be able to separate IoT and Personal WiFi signals with VLAN. Youd need to create a guest SSID for that functionality and change the channels to 6 and 11 so you get good bandwidth

Edit: this is assuming you have a layer 3 switch, if its a layer 2 I would use the Asus as a router/AP and hook it directly to the ISP router and hook the switch up to the Asus.

Maybe everyone else is seeing something I am not, but what routing path is for internet traffic to "Future PC" and its neighbors? You have the ISP modem labeled as a passthru, which means it is not handling NAT/firewall. What device is binding to the WAN IP address that the passthru will be handing out? An unmanaged switch is not going to do that.

[-] lameJake@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago

I would also consider to set up a DMZ for the Hypervisor and maybe NAS (depends on how you use it) if you access it from the internet.

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I’ve got a reverse proxy set up to handle the traffic of the services I want accessible outside my network, and port 80/443 open to be able to access them.

[-] dan@upvote.au 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

ONT is usually provided by the ISP (at least that's the case where I live) and you can't really do much with it in terms of customization, so I consider it part of the "internet" cloud in the picture. It's essentially just a media converter from fiber to RJ45 or SPF+

If the ISP provides a router, sometimes (but not always) the ONT is built into that. My ISP just provides an ONT and you need to either provide your own router or rent theirs (an Eero mesh).

[-] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

This is exactly my case, where it’s built into the ISP provided router. Previous model had a removable SFP and some were able to use that on their own hardware, bypassing the ISP provided gear.

this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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