this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2025
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[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 58 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

Nothing wrong with classes in functional programming though. Just return a new instance of the class from your method, rather than mutating an existing instance.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 24 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Right, I think the two aren't as different as they appear. You can think of a closure as an object with just one method.

If OO programming is fundamentally about objects sending messages to each other, then there are many ways to approach that. Some of those ways are totally compatible with functional programming.

The legacy of C++ has dominated what OOP is "supposed" to be, but it doesn't have to work like that.

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 15 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Javascript:

I heard you like mutating class data so I'm mutating the data you can put in your class data, dawg.

[–] underisk@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 weeks ago

JavaScript: a language for mutants.

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[–] danc4498@lemmy.world 33 points 2 weeks ago (12 children)

Do anarchists think anarchy will result in a system with no classes?

[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 51 points 2 weeks ago (31 children)

Yes, because anarchism is against all hierarchies and the class system is a form of hierarchy. Instead, decisions should me made collectively, for example in councils open for everyone

[–] SneakyAlba@ioc.exchange 11 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

@lugal @danc4498 Anarchism is against specifically unjust hierarchies, it can permit certain ones to exist within individual communities should the community find it justified, but still strongly favours not having any where possible.

There are a group of anarchists who would still believe in the idea of an adult > child hierarchy as they struggle to imagine an alternative world without it.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 8 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (9 children)

Parents have natural bootmaker authority and if you want to be a good parent then you realise that the kids also have it: They, or maybe better put their genome, know how they need to be raised, and try to teach you, as well as (with increasing age) seek out the exact bootmakers that seem sensible. Worst thing you can do as a parent is to think that learning is a one-way street.

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[–] pcalau12i@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Anarchism thus becomes meaningless as anyone who defends certain hierarchies obviously does so because they believe they are just. Literally everyone on earth is against "unjust hierarchies" at least in their own personal evaluation of said hierarchies. People who support capitalism do so because they believe the exploitative systems it engenders are justifiable and will usually immediately tell you what those justifications are. Sure, you and I might not agree with their argument, but that's not the point. To say your ideology is to oppose "unjust hierarchies" is to not say anything at all, because even the capitalist, hell, even the fascist would probably agree that they oppose "unjust hierarchies" because in their minds the hierarchies they promote are indeed justified by whatever twisted logic they have in their head.

Telling me you oppose "unjust hierarchies" thus tells me nothing about what you actually believe, it does not tell me anything at all. It is as vague as saying "I oppose bad things." It's a meaningless statement on its own without clarifying what is meant by "bad" in this case. Similarly, "I oppose unjust hierarchies" is meaningless statement without clarifying what qualifies "just" and "unjust," and once you tell me that, it would make more sense you label you based on your answer to that question. Anarchism thus becomes a meaningless word that tells me nothing about you. For example, you might tell me one unjust hierarchy you want to abolish is prison. It would make more sense for me to call you a prison abolitionist than an anarchist since that term at least carries meaning, and there are plenty of prison abolitionists who don't identify as anarchist.

[–] KindaABigDyl@programming.dev 8 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Isn't anarchy just against imposed hierarchy? Most anarchists I've met are okay with heirarchies that form naturally, and believe those hierarchies to be enough for society to function, hence why they call themselves anarchists, not minarchists.

[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 14 points 2 weeks ago

I have never heard the term minarchist. Many anarchists say, we need structures against the building of hierarchies, like avoiding knowledge hierarchies by doing skillshares.

Natural authorities are a different topic. I think Kropotkin was an example of a leader who was accepted because everyone agreed with him. Once he said something people didn't like, they rejected him as a leader. You can call this a hierarchy if you like. I wouldn't because he couldn't coerce his followers but this is pure terminology.

[–] danc4498@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago (14 children)

So, do the anarchists not think that capitalism will just prevail and bring along with it the classes of the haves and have nots? Anarchy won’t solve the problem of wealth inequality, will it? I have genuinely never understood this aspect of anarchism.

[–] groet@feddit.org 27 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

The system where someone monopolizes a essential good and leverages that to gain power is called anarcho-capitalism and is a whole different thing. In anarchy, ownership on that level does not exist. Neither a company nor a person can own a factory, or a farm, or the power grid. Employment doesn't exist. People can band together and distribute tasks for a common goal (such as producing a certain good) but they all hold equal stake in all decisions.

Of course a group of people could use violence to oppress other people. But then you no longer have anarchy. The same way a democracy stops beeing a democracy once a group seizes power and doesn't allow fair elections anymore.

[–] danc4498@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Neither a company nor a person can own a factory, or a farm, or the power grid

And who is going to stop a company from owning a factory or a farm? It wouldn’t even require violence for a company to do so. It just requires them to have enough resources to pay people to do it.

I guess I don’t see what you call “anarchy” as a system that would ever exist more than a year. The end result would always be “anarcho-capitalism”. That, or, people would have to form their own government to prevent that system.

[–] 10001110101@lemm.ee 12 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

The company would need violence. There's no reason for workers to work in a factory for less money than their goods are sold for, and there's no reason for the company to pay workers more than the goods are sold for. Without violence the workers could just produce and sell the goods themselves and ignore the company.

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[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 12 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Anarchism is anti capitalist in nature since capitalism entails hierarchies

[–] danc4498@lemmy.world 9 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

I just don’t understand how people think an anarchy can protect itself from capitalism.

[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 11 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Let's take the most "conservative" form of anarchism: anarchosyndicalism. Every factory is organized in councils, confederated both with the import or mining council and the consumer council. Now a capitalist comes and asks how much this factory costs. Do you think the council will tell them a price or to fuck off?

[–] danc4498@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Well, I don’t think a capitalist will call themselves a capitalist. I think they will have allies that get themselves appointed to the council and before we know it the factory is doing the bidding of the capitalists.

And yes, I am incredibly cynical (I blame the last 25 years), so I get that a less cynical perspective exists where this wouldn’t happen.

[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The council isn't elected. It's open for everyone to join in all decisions. It might delegate some tasks, even smaller decisions, but it can always recall them.

So in your scenario, the council would delegate the power to sell the factory to a group of people which is very unlikely. Now this group of people who are trusted by everyone would decide to sell the factory which might happen. But the council would most certainly recall them from this decision making power the never should have given away in the first place.

Maybe I should have stressed more that a council is really open for everyone to join. It's not an elected parliament or something

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[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 21 points 2 weeks ago

Depends on the anarchist. Many would focus on seeking the absence of involuntary power hierarchies. A manager who distributes work and does performance evaluations isn't intrinsically a problem, it's when people doing the work can't say "no, they're a terrible manager and they're gone", or you can't walk away from the job without risking your well-being.

Anarchists and communists/socialists have a lot of overlap. There's also overlap with libertarians, except libertarians often focus on coercion from the government and don't give much regard to economic coercion. An anarchist will often not see much difference between "do this or I hit you" and "do this or starve": they both are coercive power hierarchies.
Some anarchists are more focused on removing sources of coercion. Others are more focused on creating relief from it. The "tear it down" crowd are more visible, but you see anarchists in the mutual aid and community organization crowds as well.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 11 points 2 weeks ago

Anarchists recognize class as a social construct rather than a biological imperative or a free market condition. As a result, they will often make a point of transgressing or undermining the pageantry that class-centric organizations cling to.

Its not that they think "no classes" will be a result so much as they think "explicitly defying class" is a political act.

[–] Xavienth@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

They define anarchy differently from the common definition. Anarchists believe in creating community organizations to serve the needs of society, but they refrain from calling it a state because they believe a state requires a monopoly on the acceptable use of violence.

They don't think that we should just dissolve society and let everyone fend for themselves to eliminate class, unless they're an edgy teenager.

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[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 8 points 2 weeks ago

Anarchism is not the thing you're told about in the media. It isn't a total lack of all government. It's a removal of hierarchical systems and exploitation. There still needs to be systems to protect people from these. They'd just be done through concensus.

This page has more information if you want to learn. https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionA.html#seca1

[–] missingno@fedia.io 8 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Anarchy means "without hierarchy". Classes are a hierarchy, so by definition it wouldn't be anarchy if you don't dissolve class.

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[–] underwire212@lemm.ee 5 points 2 weeks ago
[–] Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 2 weeks ago

It's actually right in the name. Anarchy from an-arkhos means "without ruler". They think hierarchies are illegitimate per se.

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[–] a14o@feddit.org 28 points 2 weeks ago

Revolution is a monad

[–] tetris11@lemmy.ml 19 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)
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[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 16 points 2 weeks ago

Protest anonymously, function anonymously.

[–] juliebean@lemm.ee 16 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

wow, there are some really steaming takes on anarchism in the comments here.

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[–] zqwzzle@lemmy.ca 10 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Dunno how accurate this is but if you like doing those quizzes see where you fall on leftist values. https://leftvalues.github.io/index.html

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[–] sirico@feddit.uk 8 points 2 weeks ago

Declare your intentions!

[–] 30p87@feddit.org 8 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

@Instantnudel@feddit.org 🚩🏴🚩🏴🚩🏴

[–] instantnudel@feddit.org 10 points 2 weeks ago

Ich freue mich über ihre Frage. Ich fühle mich geehrt hier zu sein. Ich möchte ihnen jetzt garkein vorwurf machen aber sie haben diese Frage doch auswendig gelernt. Sie haben unser Programm nichtmal gelesen. Würden sie Habeck auch so eine Frage stellen? Jetzt unterbrechen sie mich nicht!

[–] dangling_cat@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 2 weeks ago

Depends on how pure you want it to be, without any side effects

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