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225

Don't lecture us on peaceful Russia. (youtu.be)

submitted 3 days ago by CAVOK@lemmy.world to c/europe@feddit.org

28 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Pekka Toveri (EPP) delivers a powerful reminder: Europe cannot afford to ignore the Russian threat. Drawing on the painful history of countries like Finland, Estonia, and Poland, he rejects the notion that diplomacy alone can stop aggression. Toveri stresses the need for continued defence investments to ensure Europe's security and protect future generations. Highlighting the real power behind Russia’s defence budget, he urges Europe to stay on course. Watch to understand why he believes defence readiness is not optional—it’s essential.

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[–] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 66 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

I'm starting to hate people who are shortsighted (historically challenged) and blinkered (victims of hybrid warfare) enough to claim that Russia is not a threat to Europe.

Every resident of every Eastern European country bordering Russia will tell you how they took a piece of their home. Literally just snapping off a piece of their country and quietly incorporating it into Russia. Which hasn't been undone to date. How even before Putin they talked about "protecting" "Russian" citizens of said countries (which opens up a whole new can of worms about displacement of original residents, a.k.a. genocide). How present the Russian military actually is, just across the border.

Apropos nothing here's a real conversation I had just a couple of days ago. Problem is, I like the guy. He's not a fascist. He's one of those people who say they're not political, but then cannot help themselves having an opinion anyhow. To his credit he was thoughtful and quiet after that short exchange:

Him: "You know, Putin doesn't really want war..."
Me: "What, he didn't want to invade Ukraine?"
"No, not like that. You know Tucker Carlson invited him on his show..."
"Actually, Fucker Tarlson went to Moscow."
"Yeah, anyhow, the long interview..."
"You mean Putin's monologue."
"Yes, but he said that he doesn't want war!"
"How friendly of him to protray himself like that for a large audience!"

[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Of course Putin doesn't want war. To paraphrase Jon Stewart, even Hitler didn't want war. Hitler too wanted an end to the war, just not the end that he got

[–] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Funny, I was re-thinking that exchange and me commenting about it just a couple of hours ago.

What the guy really said was more like (I'm translating): "he was peaceful and reasonable", esp. at the end there. I was snickering.

[–] peaches@lemm.ee 18 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, people are ignorant, that’s what it is. And they like to lie to themselves. I don’t like war, I don’t like conflict, even in my personal life, I rather live in peace and quiet. But step over my boundaries and you will be sorry. And second time you will probably avoid that.

I lean more to the left, generally, but I think nowadays, the left takes things to the extreme. It is one thing to purposely attack someone, it is another to not be able to defend yourself against attacks of any kind. When those people are against spending on defence and arms, they are just ignorant. Why do you think police exist? Because some people just don’t have the morality to abide by the rules we all set.

Do your work as a politician to ensure domestic safety and that there is no corruption in government to use those weapons for personal gains. Then the far right will not be so effective with their propaganda. They feed on fear and discontent. Make your citizens feel safe and have decent lives, and they will vote you.

[–] artomelaranta 21 points 3 days ago

Toveri is s former officer of Finn7 Army and he knows that we have 1300 km long border with Russia. Even though Russian army is mostly in Ukraine Finland can't be ignorant about Russian threat. Fortunately Finnish army has good intelligent department and they know where Russian troops are

[+] DicksAndPizza@lemm.ee 15 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] Venus_Ziegenfalle@feddit.org 15 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I agree with the first part but they need to be very careful not to jeopardize future weapon deliveries and bombing a hospital wouldn't go down well with any of their allies. These things also tend to rally the population even more against whoever did it. Sabotage would be better. Blown up train tracks, power cables and such. Don't give the public any martyrs but make them feel every day that the war isn't as far away as Putin has them believe.

[+] DicksAndPizza@lemm.ee 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] luciferofastora@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago

I want Russian civilians to suffer a bit because they need to fucking get the hint and do something it they want to survive

Morale Bombing has never, ever, ever worked. It has been tried: Nazi Germany bombed the UK, the UK and US bombed Germany, the US leaned on it during the cold war in Korea and Vietnam, Russia did it to Ukraine. By and large the results have been the same: Civilians hate being bombed. They'll hate you for bombing them. They'll rally against you.

Bombing can influence the leadership decisions, if it damages target of value to the high and powerful, but the historical record on bombing civilians to make them oppose the war isn't just bad, is terribly one-sided. And it makes sense: If Russia were to bomb your hometown, would that make you want to surrender or fight back?

(And in case anyone thinks that Japan was defeated just by the nukes, nothing is ever that simple in war and Japan was on the back foot already. What the nukes achieved was that the political leadership, already distressed by the way the war was going, saw the sheer and unprecedented destructive power and opted to surrender. The civilians' will had little to do with it.)

[–] Venus_Ziegenfalle@feddit.org 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

That would be satisfying for a moment (in the unlikely event where the drone actually reaches its target) but the retaliation wouldn't make it worth it. These attacks are meant to demoralize rather than harm. If you want the best of both worlds the target should be a propaganda news outlet.

[–] DicksAndPizza@lemm.ee 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I mean, Russia retaliates all the time anyways. Even unprompted. So I say fuck it. The sooner Moscow and St. Petersburg are bombed to shit, the better. Just look at Odessa. Just look at Mariupol. It’s time for Ukrainian retaliation.

You see? This is why I’m glad sane people are in charge over there. Because I would probably cause MAD with my antics lol. Please don’t give me any political power ever.

Love your username btw haha. How did you even come up with that

[+] index@sh.itjust.works -22 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Don't lecture us on peaceful europe either.

European countries combined already spend tree times more in war than russia and they have nukes staked illegally all over the place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing

[–] Railcar8095@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago

I think the problem might not be how much they spent, but what they are doing with it. Unless I'm mistaken, the real cost of the war people care about are Ukrainian civilians, not rubles.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 11 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Care to give an example of an EU country that illegally annexed part of another country in the last 80 years or so?

[–] index@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 days ago

80 years or so bring us back to 1945.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#21st_century

[–] shaserlark@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I think Russia is an imperialist monster and as such a threat to Europe, but ~~most~~ some of Europe illegally invaded Iraq & Lybia and they deliver weapons and are mostly pro-Israel. So we’re not better we’re just not attacking our direct neighbors anymore.

So the top-level comment does have a point but only because we’re hypocrites

[–] wieson@feddit.org 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Let's take all EU+ former EU+ eea countries = 31 countries

2003 invasion of Iraq:

USA, UK, Australia, Poland

2/31 = not most

Intervention in Libya 2011:

12/31 = still not most

[–] shaserlark@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Fair enough! I was confidently incorrect, thanks for correcting this.

[–] aeshna_cyanea@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

and yet in this very same thread people are perfectly willing to bomb Russian civilians because they share responsibility because they live in the same country. Somehow this doesn't apply between countries in the EU, curious

[–] shaserlark@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah I never really thought this specific hypocrisy through because it never occurred to me personally that it would be okay to ever bomb civilians, but I think you’re right. It’s a horrifying thing to think about really, but that is the level of warmongering we have reached. I actually really don’t see how it’s any better. European civilians wishing death to Russian civilians for wishing death to Ukrainian civilians. We Europeans will be able to justify why it’s okay when we do it and bad when others do it, as always. But no matter the explanation the result is the same, someone wishes people dead.

[–] federalreverse@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Ftr, those comments have (now) been removed. Not sure if it was you who reported them (I don't see that in Voyager, only in Photon). In any case, feel free to report such comments.

[–] shaserlark@sh.itjust.works 2 points 19 hours ago

Thank you! Appreciate that

[–] Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 3 days ago (1 children)

@index@sh.itjust.works

European countries combined already spend tree times more in war than russia

Your statement is outright false as Russia overtakes all of Europe on defense spending in key metric

Based on one key economic metric, Russian defense spending eclipsed all other European countries combined last year and is projected to increase further in 2025, according to a leading defense think tank [...]

Moscow’s military expenditure spiked by over 40 percent to almost $146 billion in the past year, equivalent to 6.7 percent GDP, and is on track to hit 7.5 percent GDP in 2025. When adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP), Russia spent nearly $462 billion in 2024, effectively leapfrogging Europe’s collective spending.

An important detail in the article is imo:

[Bastian Giegerich, IISS Director-General] also said that the conflict had “demonstrated increasing connections between European and Asia Pacific security” which included North Korea entering the conflict by deploying 10,000 troops, China’s decision to sell dual-use technologies to Russia [...]

Your statement that Europe has "nukes staked illegally all over the place" is as false as the link you provided is pointless. There's nothing illegal except Russia's aggression and invasion of Ukraine.

[+] index@sh.itjust.works -10 points 3 days ago (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

According to the former Italian President Francesco Cossiga, Italy's role in a planned retaliation consisted in striking with those nuclear weapons Czechoslovakia and Hungary had the Warsaw Pact waged nuclear war against NATO. He acknowledged the presence of U.S. nuclear weapons in Italy, and speculated about the possible presence of British and French nuclear weapons."

The former Czechoslovakia has emerged in two countries (Czech Republic and Slovakia, just in case you don't know), the Warsaw Pact dissolved more than 30 years ago. Francesco Cossiga was Italian President in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

And these are just three of your many weird statements that are completly irrelevant regarding Russia's illegal and unprovoked aggression against Ukraine that started in 2014. Your false and obviously misleading statements discredit you.

You may wish to read a history book or two instead of the communities where you read this rubbish.