this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2025
214 points (92.5% liked)

Technology

68305 readers
6038 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related news or articles.
  3. Be excellent to each other!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
  10. Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.

Approved Bots


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] El_Azulito@lemmy.world 1 points 18 minutes ago

…Duh. 🤓

[–] vane@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

Someone put 69 to research and then to article. Nice trolling.

[–] Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 7 points 4 hours ago

Another very surprising outcome of the research is the discovery that these LLMs do not, as is widely assumed, operate by merely predicting the next word. By tracing how Claude generated rhyming couplets, Anthropic found that it chose the rhyming word at the end of verses first, then filled in the rest of the line.

If the llm already knows the full sentence it's going to output from the first word it "guesses" I wonder if you could short circuit it and say just give the full sentence instead of doing a cycle for each word of the sentence, could maybe cut down on llm energy costs.

[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 43 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

"Ask Claude to add 36 and 59 and the model will go through a series of odd steps, including first adding a selection of approximate values (add 40ish and 60ish, add 57ish and 36ish). Towards the end of its process, it comes up with the value 92ish. Meanwhile, another sequence of steps focuses on the last digits, 6 and 9, and determines that the answer must end in a 5. Putting that together with 92ish gives the correct answer of 95," the MIT article explains."

That is precisrly how I do math. Feel a little targeted that they called this odd.

[–] JayGray91@lemmy.zip 3 points 52 minutes ago

I think it's odd in the sense that it's supposed to be software so it should already know what 36 plus 59 is in a picosecond, instead of doing mental arithmetics like we do

At least that's my takeaway

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 15 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

I use a calculator. Which an AI should also be and not need to do weird shit to do math.

[–] Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 hours ago

Function calling is a thing chatbots can do now

[–] harryprayiv@infosec.pub 115 points 15 hours ago (7 children)

To understand what's actually happening, Anthropic's researchers developed a new technique, called circuit tracing, to track the decision-making processes inside a large language model step-by-step. They then applied it to their own Claude 3.5 Haiku LLM.

Anthropic says its approach was inspired by the brain scanning techniques used in neuroscience and can identify components of the model that are active at different times. In other words, it's a little like a brain scanner spotting which parts of the brain are firing during a cognitive process.

This is why LLMs are so patchy at math. (Image credit: Anthropic)

Anthropic made lots of intriguing discoveries using this approach, not least of which is why LLMs are so terrible at basic mathematics. "Ask Claude to add 36 and 59 and the model will go through a series of odd steps, including first adding a selection of approximate values (add 40ish and 60ish, add 57ish and 36ish). Towards the end of its process, it comes up with the value 92ish. Meanwhile, another sequence of steps focuses on the last digits, 6 and 9, and determines that the answer must end in a 5. Putting that together with 92ish gives the correct answer of 95," the MIT article explains.

But here's the really funky bit. If you ask Claude how it got the correct answer of 95, it will apparently tell you, "I added the ones (6+9=15), carried the 1, then added the 10s (3+5+1=9), resulting in 95." But that actually only reflects common answers in its training data as to how the sum might be completed, as opposed to what it actually did.

In other words, not only does the model use a very, very odd method to do the maths, you can't trust its explanations as to what it has just done. That's significant and shows that model outputs can not be relied upon when designing guardrails for AI. Their internal workings need to be understood, too.

Another very surprising outcome of the research is the discovery that these LLMs do not, as is widely assumed, operate by merely predicting the next word. By tracing how Claude generated rhyming couplets, Anthropic found that it chose the rhyming word at the end of verses first, then filled in the rest of the line.

"The planning thing in poems blew me away," says Batson. "Instead of at the very last minute trying to make the rhyme make sense, it knows where it’s going."

Anthropic discovered that their Claude LLM didn't just predict the next word. (Image credit: Anthropic)

Anthropic also found, among other things, that Claude "sometimes thinks in a conceptual space that is shared between languages, suggesting it has a kind of universal 'language of thought'."

Anywho, there's apparently a long way to go with this research. According to Anthropic, "it currently takes a few hours of human effort to understand the circuits we see, even on prompts with only tens of words." And the research doesn't explain how the structures inside LLMs are formed in the first place.

But it has shone a light on at least some parts of how these oddly mysterious AI beings—which we have created but don't understand—actually work. And that has to be a good thing.

[–] msage@programming.dev 1 points 10 minutes ago

My favourite part of the day: commenting LLMentalist under AI articles.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 48 points 14 hours ago (17 children)

Is that a weird method of doing math?

I mean, if you give me something borderline nontrivial like, say 72 times 13, I will definitely do some similar stuff. "Well it's more than 700 for sure, but it looks like less than a thousand. Three times seven is 21, so two hundred and ten, so it's probably in the 900s. Two times 13 is 26, so if you add that to the 910 it's probably 936, but I should check that in a calculator."

Do you guys not do that? Is that a me thing?

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 2 points 1 hour ago

I wouldn't even attempt that in my head.
I can't keep track of things and then recall them later for the final result.

[–] Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

How I'd do it is basically

72 * (10+3)

(72 * 10) + (72 * 3)

(720) + (3*(70+2))

(720) + (210+6)

(720) + (216)

936

Basically I break the numbers apart into easier chunks and then add them together.

[–] reev@sh.itjust.works 26 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

I think what's wild about it is that it really is surprisingly similar to how we actually think. It's very different from how a computer (calculator) would calculate it.

So it's not a strange method for humans but that's what makes it so fascinating, no?

[–] pulsewidth@lemmy.world 1 points 19 minutes ago

Yes, agreed. And calculators are essentially tabulators, and operate almost just like a skilled person using an abacus.

We shouldn't really be surprised because we designed these machines and programs based on our own human experiences and prior solutions to problems. It's still neat though.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 15 points 12 hours ago

That's what's fascinating about how it does language in general.

The article is interesting in both the ways in which things are similar and the ways they're different. The rough approximation thing isn't that weird, but obviously any human would have self-awareness of how they did it and not accidentally lie about the method, especially when both methods yield the same result. It's a weirdly effective, if accidental example of human-like reasoning versus human-like intelligence.

And, incidentally, of why AGI and/or ASI are probably much further away than the shills keep claiming.

[–] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 12 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

This is pretty normal, in my opinion. Every time people complain about common core arithmetic there are dozens of us who come out of the woodwork to argue that the concepts being taught are important for deeper understanding of math, beyond just rote memorization of pencil and paper algorithms.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 4 points 6 hours ago

Rote memorization should be minimized in school curriculum

load more comments (13 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] hersh@literature.cafe 27 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

But here’s the really funky bit. If you ask Claude how it got the correct answer of 95, it will apparently tell you, “I added the ones (6+9=15), carried the 1, then added the 10s (3+5+1=9), resulting in 95.” But that actually only reflects common answers in its training data as to how the sum might be completed, as opposed to what it actually did.

This is not surprising. LLMs are not designed to have any introspection capabilities.

Introspection could probably be tacked onto existing architectures in a few different ways, but as far as I know nobody's done it yet. It will be interesting to see how that might change LLM behavior.

[–] singletona@lemmy.world 0 points 3 hours ago

Then take that concept further, and let it keep introspecting and inspecting how it comes to the conclusions it does and eventually....

[–] simple@lemm.ee 48 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Rather than read PCGamer talk about Anthropic's article you can just read it directly here. It's a good read.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] FunnyUsername@lemmy.world 32 points 15 hours ago (24 children)

this is one of the most interesting things about Llms that i have ever read

load more comments (24 replies)
[–] Geometrinen_Gepardi@sopuli.xyz 19 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

It's amazing that humans have coded a tool for which they have to afterwards write more tools for analyzing how it works.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›