If you didn't reason your way into a problem you aren't likely to reason your way out of it
this post was submitted on 09 May 2025
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To start, it's a large scale demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They obviously understand very little about the law, if anything, but they think they understand one loophole and the sense of understanding breeds confidence. When you understand nothing, the feeling that you now understand something can be a powerful one.
Follow that up with a conspiracy-theorist's mindset and it starts to make more sense. The SovCit thinks they understand this loophole, but that They don't want to allow it. Who are They? Pick one. The Deep State, Corporate Elites, Rogue Judges, whoever it is that the SovCit feels has the power and will to ignore the rules just to personally thwart that SovCit's stunningly clever application of the law. Now, their case isn't failing because literally everything they thought they understood about the law is wrong, it's because that Judge is willfully ignoring the law in an abuse of power specifically intended to put a stop to this. It's not that the SovCit was wrong to think their signature on legal documents was meaningless because they wrote "Rights Reserved" beside it, the Deep State just doesn't want people to know that's how you avoid consequences!
Finally, wrap it all up with mythical "experts" and a self propagating network. One person trying all that shit alone might realize they don't actually know what they're doing, but they'll select their contacts to surround themselves with people who will reassure them that if the first letter of the name on that legal document is capitalized it actually means a shadow-account created at birth and not the biological person. They'll get support to help them overcome their doubts, fed by rumors of a friend of a friend who totally got it to work, or someone who got away with a warning on a traffic stop because they didn't recognize the cop's jurisdiction, or a friend's cousin who has been using a fake "Private" license plate for months and has never been puled over. None of these experts materialize and provide solid, actionable information in a crisis, but the rumors and support are enough to keep any doubts at bay.
Because they're too dumb to realize how dumb they are.
I was gonna say "Dunning-Krugers gonna Dunning-Kruger."
i have a good friend who does this. he truly believes these are ancient documented loopholes in the law that he is exploiting. he calls himself a lawyer and he represents himself in court.
he's an honest and legitimately good person, and the things he's been trying to do are backed by good intentions. he's a retired veteran, and an activist for progressive social causes. unfortunately he's in prison now.
Another "sovcit victory"
It's the same way people will believe conspiracy theories or trust homeopathic remedies despite all the evidence against them. The world is complicated. Sometimes people think the simple solution must be the correct one, but that's not really the truth.
Think of how stupid the average person is, then realize half of them are stupider than that. - Carlin
The state asserts its sovereignty and backs up the claim with the consensus of the people and a lot of guns.
A sovereign citizen makes the same claim but fails to convince or compel others to agree.
They very well might believe in some god-given authority but that's not how any of this works.
But maybe an SC will uncover a deeply hidden loophole someday and win an argument. The law affords them the opportunity to try.
An interesting addendum to your question: this is not a exclusively US based phenomenon. In Germany there are the Reichsbürgers they have similar ideas.
They think legally the state has no claim to rule and most people just don't know they still live in the German Reich still.
So they have their own king selling them passports and they have pretty aggressive group think to try and enforce their claims.
My wife's dad is one of them. The main thing I recognize comes from a pathological need to know better than everybody else. It's very tightly coupled to their sense of worth and identity. They are better than everybody else because they have seen the light.
Pretty culty behavior and just enough pseudo truth to keep simple minds saying "yeah there might be something there". Like "vaccination causes autism, they just don't want you to know".
Makes a loser in societies eyes, but a superhuman in their eyes. And yes, they still run into a wall and just keep trying to adjust their angle to hit that sacred sweet spot. Because now they need to prove how they are better and as they already have sacrificed so much they can't be wrong to continue. (Just like a gambler who already lost a lot.)
So it's a few psychological dynamics that grip into each other like gears and that ratchet them ever so tightly to their belief until there is no turning back.
The dedication of these individuals is noteworthy... What drives this persistence? Is it a deep-seated belief system that overrides rational analysis
It's a lovely little combo of desperation and digging themselves into a hole. Most of the elements of sovereign citizens come from people who are not in good situations, as outlined by the canadian court's very thorough opinion (which has already been linked twice in this thread, so I won't bother it again). Once you're in it, the same situation occurs that you can see with people in cults, mlm companies, or ponzi schemes. Maybe if you keep going, and pushing through the pain right now, you'll get that mythical payoff. The alternative is to face the fact that you've likely ruined your life, rendering impossible whatever you hoped to achieve in the legal system in the first place.
I think it’s low level mental illness or some yet to be diagnosed mental condition. I don’t think it manifests itself strictly in Sov Cit folks. Think of those people who go full Don Quixote over some perceived wrong wrought onto them. They dig themselves in to fight something ridiculous and impossible to win -for they have no case- and spend their lives dedicated to it, never giving up or letting it go. The Sov Cit dudes at least have each other to commiserate.
Yeah this is some kind of specific oppositional defiance disorder
This was my dad but thankfully he had ADHD, so he'd forget to hold a grudge after a day or two.
Still, it was annoying that every single minor inconvenience was this great injustice made to torture specifically him. He definitely was a narcissist with a healthy dose of main character syndrome thrown in for good measure.
The prerequisite for joining such hyperindividualistic ideologies is the belief that you're better/more important than others, that the work of others can't be depended on ("if you want it done right, you've got to to it yourself" fallacy mindset).
So:
Why do people continue to adopt this seemingly futile approach? It’s akin to watching 5,000 parachutists attempt a failed jump from the Eiffel Tower, only for newcomers to keep trying despite knowing, or perhaps ignoring, the inevitable outcome. Despite the growing pile of mangled bodies at the base of the tower, every day people decide to climb up and try for themselves.
"Well duh, those people failed because they weren't me!"
While what you said is true, you're neglecting that it's not entirely based on selfish ideations.
There are people selling courses and profiting heavily from tricking those people into thinking that these strategies work. They pretend they've won cases like this, that the loopholes are real, that many people are singing them praises. The failed attempts are just "the loud minority that screwed up the process".
To be clear, there really is no such thing as a "Sovereign Citizen" except in their own brain.
They believe that there is some hidden loophole that only "smart" people understand that allows them to reap the benefits of being a part of a society without having to be subject to any of its rules; and that that cheat code is accessed via some combination of paperwork that the government keeps hidden from the public.
Essentially, to them, the social contract (ie. citizens voluntary give up certain rights like the right to speed through red lights, the right to murder, etc... and subject themselves to laws of the state in exchange for that state providing them with roads, infrastructure, stability, prosperity and the right certain inalienable freedoms) is just for suckers who don't know the correct forms to fill out.
It's absolute mind-numbing stupidity of the highest order.
They believe that the right amount of good spells recited in the correct order will grant them victory. Unfortunately they've studied a different magic book than most people, so their magic does not work on others.
It's funny because the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS work for cops.
Speeding? You mean traveling in a conveyance.
Assault and battery? You mean protecting and serving.
Deprivation of rights, kidnapping, and false imprisonment? You see, your honor, I didn't know about any of that stuff so it shouldn't apply to me.
In conclusion, the only "sovereign citizens" in this country are the bitches in blue.
Police have special powers according to the law, so no, the same arguments don’t work.
They REALLY don't. They have very situational allowances that have become defacto "special powers" thanks to a combination of decades of copaganda and huckster "warrior programs" that teach wannabe bullies that they are the most important of gods special snowflakes whose only responsibility is saving their own ass.
Check out the guy that got stabbed in the face repeatedly on an NY subway while cops watched from 10 feet away, behind a safety door meant to protect the train conductor. Took them to court because their motto was literally "protect and serve" and got a real live judge to say out loud that it wasn't literal and cops have no duty to actually protect or serve anyone, legally.
They REALLY do. What you call “situational allowances” are what we’re talking about. You can’t turn on some flashing lights and speed through red lights to get to a crime legally. They can.
Police have special powers that the rest of us don’t have. If they didn’t then police wouldn’t even exist.
The problem I'm talking about is when they speed through red lights because they think they have these "special powers" when they law is EXCRUCIATINGLY explicit on exactly when and why cops can sometimes disregard certain legal requirements. That does not mean they can do what they want when they want. That's exactly the kind of people OP is talking about, and that's cops. To a fuckin T. Nobody else goes to court, cries ignorance as an excuse, and expects to get away with it.
My real problem is that it works for them. Qualified immunity is a disgrace to law, as is the absolute immunity enjoyed by judges and magistrates. You want to fix law, fix that first.
Ok so your issue is that police abuse their powers, powers that regular citizens do not have. I agree that’s a huge problem and it should be addressed regularly.
That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand though. Sovereign citizens live in la-la-land. There are no special hidden laws about “travelling vs driving” where you don’t need a drivers license to drive on public roads. There are laws that allow police to speed and go through red lights.
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Because people are idiots
Sin is never a sufficient explanation for human behavior. Meaning anytime we think "it's because they are bad", we're missing something big.
All behavior is an attempt to meet needs. Any correct explanation of behavior identifies the need and how the behavior is believed to meet it.
They may not be smart, on average as a group. But that's not why they keep doing this.
I never said anything about sin. The whole concept of sin is religious bullshit anyway, of which the existence can be explained the same way as OP's question. People are idiots. They either are incapable of thinking or unwilling to do so.
sin is religious bullshit anyway
Yep, that's why I used the word.
Suggesting that "people are idiots" actually explains behavior is just like believing in sin - it's just giving up on understanding reality. It makes as much sense as a right wing christian trying explain away their opponents as sinners.
They keep doing this because there are scammers and grifters getting rich pushing this content to lots and lots and lots of people because of the view-based revenue they get from doing it and big tech's algorithms reward it with more views and more success. And sometimes they also get rich taking some of those people's money, specifically the dumb and desperate and paranoid delusional people who are terrified of "the man" and the government and think they have found the secret cheat code of avoiding government.
People do it because they're dumb, but they're dumb because it gets shown and promoted specifically to them over and over again because Google et al have gotten really good at identifying people susceptible to nonsense and constantly shoving things like this down their throats until their brains literally rot. As the saying goes, "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." And big tech keeps doing that, individually and specifically, to many people including children, possibly without even any particular intention to cause harm besides the idea that it will keep them watching even more videos and earning even more ad revenue. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not intentionally causing harm, their apathy and apologism for the harm they are causing is horrific and unforgivable and sovereign citizens are just one of many highly destructive content funnels that modern algorithms empirically promote.
Content discovery is utterly toxic and it is literally, not exaggerating at all, destroying civilization.
You can be smart, but still be an idiot.
- They DO see people claiming success.
These include scammers, and suckers who don't want to admit they're wrong.
- Their sovcit actions DO occasionally lead to success.
The rare success isn't due to it being valid, but rather because the officials don't want to deal with a crazy person. For example police sometimes let sovcit people out of getting a ticket because sovcits can be dangerous wackos and the cop just doesn't want to deal with them. Another example is sometimes a government clerk will actually file an actually useful form to do a thing even when the sovcit tries to file some crazy nonsense form.
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Being a conspiracy theorist by default requires ignoring evidence that goes against your claims, so it's not that surprising really :3
Yes, the argument failed in the past. But, on the other hand, I'm the main character, so when I do it things will be different.
If they were reasonable or intelligent they wouldn't be what they are in the first place.
I suspect you already know about Meads v Meads. Paragraph 73 of that provides some clues:
All this is a consequence of the fact gurus proclaim they know secret principles and law, hidden from the public, but binding on the state, courts, and individuals.
Many people like the thought that they know something no one else knows or that at least most people don't know. Including things about the law.
Why does the US government pursue an unwinnable War on Drugs ?
Belief in what they are doing is important and right.
Of which they are not.
Delusion
Because our president shows that once in 248 years, someone who continuously flouts the law somehow makes it into power, then changes everything to be in their favor, permanently.
Because stupidity is immortal.
If I had to guess, i think most of it comes down to not wanting to understand how society works, and finding it easier to think everything should come for free to them. If I couldn't afford my car payments and someone told me that if you're a sovereign citizen, you don't have to pay, I could see how desperation could lead people to think they could get out of obligations. There's also probably a large group of influencers and scammers who are incentivized to spread this misinformation, which is how it spreads.
It's also likely that for minor infractions, they're let off with a warning from an officer who doesn't want to deal with them, and this emboldens them to think they're correct in how society functions, until they get an officer who won't put up with them, or do something so egregious, it can't be ignored.
Identities with more rigorous behavior requirements often persist longer. It seems counter-intuitive but the greater the buy-in required, the more appealing the identity seems to be.
In some weird and deeply human way, displaying your devotion to these doomed and unreasonable defenses probably increases the individual's status among their sovereign peers. That's the payoff that we don't see when we only look at the financial and legal costs.
They do it for the same reason people buy lottery tickets, despite the horrible odds: blind hope.
Plus, you never have to admit you were wrong.
They just don't know better.
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