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“But tradespeople can’t carry their stuff around by bike” – oh yes they can! How cargo bikes are changing the way people work (road.cc)
submitted 11 months ago by FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world to c/micromobility@lemmy.world
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[-] BestDan@lemmy.world 33 points 11 months ago

Look, I love bikes- I ride them, fix them, dream about them, but honestly, as a former electrician I can also acknowledge that it would be severely limiting to do that job on a bike.
If you’re working on domestic then you need a few ladders, a couple of hundred kilos of tools, at least 3 rolls of different cables, and a small shop of various outlets etc. not to mention that ducking out to the wholesalers to pick up something to finish a job would take 1hr instead of 10 min.

Industrial electrician would just be funny - imagine cycling across town with a 500kg variable speed drive or switchboard on your pushy..

I couldn’t do the job efficiently with a sedan, let alone something with a fraction of the capacity. Also - where does the apprentice sit?

[-] bingbong@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 11 months ago

Also - where does the apprentice sit?

They're the ones pedaling

[-] FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago

Waiting for the day we start hauling wind turbine blades with cargo bikes!

Also, the apprentice can get a sidecar lol

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

As much a I hate cars I can guarantee that wouldn't work in Canada for at least half the year.

[-] FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I bike commute year round, but yeah, past a certain point, the cold kills the batteries so I have to switch to a traditional bike: That would be damn near impossible with huge amounts of cargo on anything but completely flat land.

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

And honestly, that's only one small problem when it comes to Canada. We're huge, we're cold, and we'rereally spaced out.

I would truly love to see a viable solution for this sort of problem though. And like, in the cities I can see this being used for mail cargo and stuff, but not on a large scale.

[-] Nouveau_Burnswick@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

Are we spaced out though? Obviously distances between our cities is large, but we're 73.7% urban. On par with the EU (75%) and more dense than worldwide (57%). 36% of Canadians commute <5km, 59% <10km.81% <20km.

We like to call size the problem, but in my observation, there are certain activities that require a car, and then we just use the car all the time because we have it already.

When I was in Small-town ON (population 5,000), a car was definately a necessity, you can't get everything you need in town; the bigger town was 30km, and the city was ~200km. Owning a car was a necessity, and I don't think anyone would question that.

However, we all drove everywhere. Work? Drive. McDo/Tim's? Drive. Grocery? Drive. The restaurant/bar? Drive. But the town is maybe 5sq km. Any point in town to any other point in town was <2.5km, but we all drove everywhere.

That's not a question of distance, that's a question of design and making it nice to walk of bike. The trails were rammed on the evenings and weekends (so much so I'd drive around to find parking at the trailhead 1.3km from where I lived...), so it's not like we were fundamentally opposed to, or incapable of, walking/biking/whatever.

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The next city closest to me is over an 8 hour drive. My city has a footprint bigger than Vancouver at over 300² KMs. Yes, we are spaced far apart, especially when comparing us to the USA which is where most of these things tend to be marketed. When you add the mountains and bone chilling temperatures I can say with relative certainty that cycling packages and equipment around the city all year round is absolutely not feasible. Even in Edmonton or Calgary this wouldn't work in the winter.

I personally don't own a car, I walk and transit everywhere, and your experience and observation are limited. I'd like my electrician to show up with all of his fingers.

[-] Nouveau_Burnswick@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Of course my experience and observations are limited. I've only lived 10 places in Canada.

On weather, when I lived in Yellowknife, it was easier, faster, and cheaper to hop on my bike; than to plug in for 30-120 minutes, idle for 15, and then drive. But that's obviously a pretty compact place. So it's probably more condusive than a southern city like Edmonton. And there's no major hills or mountains to speak of.

Not every place is going to have the same solutions; but a big number of cities can get a lot of trips done with improve transit.

The point is that we need to be doing things to reduce vehicle trips. If bicycle trips are only viable for 7 months a year, that's 7 months less vehicle trips.

If you can only do 50% of you to errands without a car, that's 50% less errands. We have a culture around driving everywhere, and we need to break considering other trips trips are alternatives to driving. Trips where we are driving should only be the ones with no viable alternatives.

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

And yet you argue all my points that this isn't a good solution for us. I never said it wasn't good for elsewhere. I get the point and I'm on board with reducing driving- and trust me I do my part, but you are never going to get a busy tradesperson riding their cargo around in January. If a solution is only going to work when the weather is perfect it isn't going to convince anyone who has to actually haul around the stuff to switch and that's the biggest hurdle to jump.

I'm sure this would be great in lots of places where it isn't below zero for over half the year.

[-] FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Definitely more viable in big cities, but until we get solid state batteries that don't get messed up by extreme cold, it's a moot point anyhow.

Maybe if someone develops a warp drive for bicycles it'll become viable away from places like Toronto lol

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

It's not about speed it's about protection. People need to be warm and safe while traveling between jobs.

[-] FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Warm can be done easily enough with the right clothing, but yeah, safety is another matter.

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Warm clothes can only go so far, you have to still be able to move. Workers need a heat source to replenish themselves, not just to bundle up. To wear all the necessary clothing to keep myself warm for a 45 minute walk adds 15 minutes on to the walk because of how much it bogs me down.

[-] Nouveau_Burnswick@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

Obviously every situation is different.

When I was in electrical we'd take the truck to the site on the first and last day, and park the tool trailer sat in situ. The rest of the days we'd pile in a berliner (sedan), which still gave us wheels if we needed to grab something. I'd bike if the site was close enough.

As the apprentice, I sat in the back of the Berliner, and on a milk crate between the seats in the truck.

[-] yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee 1 points 11 months ago

berliner (sedan)

People still use that term where you live? 😳 That's like, old, real old, it used to be a horse carriage and then was used for early cars. Haven't seen it outside a museum until now.

[-] Nouveau_Burnswick@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

Québécois term. It specifically refers to a 4 door with a trunk that extends past the passenger area.

I'm pretty sure we use sedan in the rest of Canada.

[-] yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee 1 points 11 months ago

Love it (I'm from Berlin)

[-] TimtheTimTim@midwest.social 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I think it depends on the work that you are doing. I'm currently working as a journeyman and the most I need to bring is my hand tools. If you need to carry more the company will likely give a vehicle, but the vast majority of people drive their personal vehicles only to transport themselves and their hand tools.

[-] makingStuffForFun@lemmy.ml 13 points 11 months ago

I'm in Vietnam right now, and let me tell you, trades people can definitely carry tools around on a bike. The huge loads they carry here are impressive.

However, the reality is, in say Australia, that tradesperson has about 2.5 tonnes of tools, and no bike anywhere is going to be able to lug that around.

4wd. Long range, and most likely, diesel engines are the best for these people. That's reality. Anything else is a fantasy.

[-] HeartyBeast@kbin.social 10 points 11 months ago

I’m in London, and I frequently see a local painter/decorator with his stuff on a cargo bike - including a stepladdder. Sees entirely practical

[-] makingStuffForFun@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

For that person sure. My neighbour has 4 different types of nail guns, each for the special task they're required for. The air compressor to drive them. The high-pressure air hose. About 12 batteries for his various saws, drills, etc. Speaking of saws, he has circular. Drop. Reticulation. And more. Then his hammers, hand saws, nails for said guns. Screws. Ladders. Straight edges. There would be lots of things I've missed like saw horses for his drop saw. The actual portable drop saw bench. Then of course the materials. Wood, glues, putty, etc etc etc. There is no way this guy is getting on a bike. My neighbour is your typical tradie in Australia.

Edit. Down voted for the facts. Come on, argue some facts if you disagree.

[-] yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee 9 points 11 months ago

Nobody expects everybody to transport everything everywhere with a bike.

Germany has a growing number of carpenters, construction workers, etc using cargo bikes when possible, which is quite often. Same in France. Of course they also use a van to transport wood, etc. But many jobs don't require to bring everything and the kitchen sink. So they have maybe one van and three cargo bikes instead of four vans, or just rent one when needed.

https://www.handwerk-magazin.de/lastenrad-einsatz-im-handwerk-ohne-fuehrerschein-voll-bepackt-und-schnell-am-ziel-278177/

https://www.holzundheim.de/schreiner-berlin-kreuzberg.html

[-] BestDan@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago

Most tradespeople are working across several jobs at once. The cases where it would be practical to shuttle between them & organise all materials to be delivered ahead of time would be very limited. You’d need to be in a dense area (city), that is relatively flat & have a number of large, simple jobs on the go at a time.

If you’ve ever built something you’ll be familiar with the million screws & extras you had to duck out for - tradesmen carry that stuff in their vehicle to save them (& you) the expense of them coming back with the parts later.

I’m an avid cyclist & used to ride motorbikes. There is absolutely no way I could carry what I need to do the job, outside of a massive multi-week fit out where I can essentially park my tools & all equipment onsite & commute to/from by bike.

[-] yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee 5 points 11 months ago

What part of nobody expects everyone to use a bike do you not understand?

I don't care about the people who cannot use a bike. What I do care about is that the people who can start doing so.

You’d need to be in a dense area (city)

So? You make that sound like it's a rare exception. Plenty of people living in dense cities, let's start there.

If you’ve ever built something

I guess the carpenter in the example I gave you who started with one bike, now has three, and says it heavily reduced their use of cars hasn't built anything at all in his life...

[-] HeartyBeast@kbin.social 6 points 11 months ago

Yeh, so he uses his van as a portable store for all of hys equipment. ons alternative is taking the tools you need need for that day’s work.

Anyway. The argument isn’t that bikes are suitable for all tradespeople in all circumstances (well that’s not my argument anyway) it’s that they are practical in a significant way.

[-] TurtleJoe@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

This article merely states that some tradespeople can use bikes instead of cars/vans/trucks, a point which you repeatedly agree with. You then go on to argue that the article is wrong because not everybody can use a bike.

I'm not sure why you've decided to pick an argument here.

[-] makingStuffForFun@lemmy.ml 0 points 11 months ago

But I'm not. I'm simply stating it's not possible for most. Other people didn't like that fact, and they started arguing. Good on the German guy that can. Unfortunately, most tradies have to burn diesel though.

[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago

You'll always be downvoted for facts they don't like here, it's normal with this kind of people.

[-] yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago

And with "facts" you mean the strawmen you like to burn?

https://kbin.social/m/fuck_cars@lemmy.ml/t/570625/-/comment/3180120

Say, how many sock puppet accounts do you have exactly to spread your hate of bikes?

[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world -3 points 11 months ago

I don't spread "hate of bikes". I don't hate bikes, either. I've probably done more kilometers on them than most of the regulars here.

I just point out the extreme level of bigotry in this kind of "kill all cars" communities.

[-] yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee 2 points 11 months ago

There is no "kill all cars community" except in your head...

[-] Mac@mander.xyz 0 points 11 months ago

Hilariously untrue.

[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

I’m in Vietnam right now, and let me tell you, trades people can definitely carry tools around on a bike. The huge loads they carry here are impressive.

And how many are doing this in a way that would be acceptable as traffic-safe in a western city? I've seen videos of people in SEA transporting goods in all kinds of highly unsafe manners. Full-size fridge on a normal bike? A ton of bricks in a small hand-cart? Haybales, three meters wide and four high, on a scooter? Quite normal down there, but I can't see anyone doing this in a large western city.

[-] makingStuffForFun@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

Not a single one would pass any form of regulation in Australia at least. It can be done, but it's not practical, legal, nor considered safe in my country.

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Try that I Canada this time of year too. We have snow in BC and it is below zero ( or 32 for Americans) most days now.

[-] PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com 8 points 11 months ago

I learned about cargo bikes a few days ago...and yeah, they look like a real alternative to cars.

[-] nilloc@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 11 months ago

Electrified ones especially, but tradespeople in my area often need to drive 100+ miles a day. Carrying ladders, extension cords, cordless tools, and a couple hundred pounds of other parts and supplies.

It’s also our lunch spot (for those that pack our own) and runabout to get a missing part when needed.

In a city, for handyman work, I could probably set something up and be comfortable and happy. Outside that it’s a stretch and would require changing a lot, or simply offsetting the heavy vehicle use to another user.

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago

Offsetting doesn't work. It's a myth, you can't undo your carbon footprint by using a bike later.

That said, I agree that the cargo bike solution wouldn't work for trades people. There needs to be a middle ground that isn't an just an EV.

[-] nilloc@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 11 months ago

I don’t mean carbon offsetting, I mean that the vehicle use will be shifted to delivery vans if tradespeople can’t bring large parts with them long distances. And Uber might have to fill the gaps for short missing parts trips, which may be less efficient.

[-] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Sorry, I misread

[-] TheSlad@sh.itjust.works -1 points 11 months ago

Stupid argument. Its ok to use cars when necessary, the problem is people using them for everything and anything, also people driving around huge gas guzzling monsters by themselves. Cargo bikes are absolutely not a solution for tradespeople who need to take a lot of tools and materials to various job sites.

this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2023
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