Always lovely when we take extremely complicated problems and conclude "it's simple, we kill my favorite pet peeve"
this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2025
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i decided that my comment was too spicy, even with disclaimers.
Yes but counterpoint, capitalism is a human invention so humans (at our current state) are still the root cause
And it's not like it was all utopian paradise before capitalism was invented.
We can also be the solution.
There are more options than just capitalism (and especially the weird kind of klepto-capitalism that we're falling into globally now).
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Humans also invented slavery, torture devices, nuclear weapons, and totalitarian regimes but we don't argue these things are "natural" or inevitable.
Just because humans created capitalism doesn't mean it's an expression of some essential or universal human trait.
Nah, other animals have performed transactions since before humans existed. The fact that we do it in marble halls and fancy suits doesn't make us the originators.
Such a western view: a capitalist society. We have the choice to participate in that or in a different system. Most just don’t want to give up the “I have” for “what can be”.
I think they did a study in the Amazon, and found that actually the Amazon is strongest when defended by indigenous populations. In fact basically all around the world, all nature is stronger when protected by humans.
I think you could make the case that before capitalism, this would also have been the case in the west. There are clear links between the growth of capitalism and witch burning.
I would love to see a post-capitalistic society... but the (class-)war toward it is long and potentially bloody.
Not potentially. Inevitably. The ruling class will never give up authority willingly.
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In most of the world its participate in capitalism or go to jail, not like you can just go live in a tent in the woods without being dragged out. (Unless you live somewhere like the US which still has really big woods.)
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Communist countries did some pretty heinous stuff to the environment, too. Industrialization lets us fuck things up efficiently regardless of the economic system.
Yeah, it is not Capitalism alone, but a Promethean Worldview. Authoritarian communist countries hat that one embedded as well.
This is why we need not only a change of economic system, but a shift in perception of nature as well.
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Doesn't fascism require a strong man leader?
I'm all for calling out destructive ideologies but if we call everything fascism then it's really going to dilute the power of the term.
Fascists typically believe in strongman leadership, but you don't have to swear allegiance to a specific strongman to be a fascist.
Eco-fascists, in particular, want a Pol Pot-style dictator, someone who will ignore laws, human rights, and common decency, in order to drastically reduce the human population and force the survivors into low-tech subsistence farming. Last I checked, no one like that is anywhere near power anywhere in the world, but that doesn't make eco-fascists any less fascist for it.
I think eco-fascism in particular is fascinating, because elements of it can take root in otherwise very progressive individuals. And then they go on to spread to crypto-fascism without even knowing it--like the "humans are the virus" thing, which you might chalk up to everyday cynicism.
I mean this is true of all fascisms. I hesitate to call it a natural human disease of the mind or anything like that, but it certainly is a tendency, especially when times are tough.
Sure. Fascism, at its core, is just a fancy 20th century version of the age-old human instinct to respond to problems with violence. And we all have to watch out for that instinct. Progressives are human too.
I guess I'm just slowly realizing that--that it isn't something that can ever be "solved" for good, just combated and mitigated. Not to say it isn't a worthwhile struggle. Perhaps even the most worthwhile struggle we have.
I'm far, far more concerned with the regular fascism going on then someone crashing out about why people wont just stop being terrible to each other.
Capitalism is largely responsible for climate change. Deforestation and aquifer depletion are more directly linked to population growth. Communism wouldn’t magically make industrial agriculture go away
No it wouldn’t but do you know the biggest contributor to CO2 emissions isn’t agriculture it’s just plain old energy usage.
Communism can most definitely help in curbing the use and extraction of fossil fuels while coordinating their replacement with renewables on a time scale that won’t doom humanity.
Yes I agree with you! Greed is at the heart of our predicament. I just think that the focus on CO2 emissions as the main problem is missing all of the other planetary boundaries we are crossing. There is an ecological problem in addition to the economic one. Without a doubt the economic problem has multiplied the harm of overpopulation manyfold, wealthy and exploitative countries are disproportionately to blame for the dangers we face, and we should seek new ways of living that are not inherently exploitative to minimize the loss of life as we adjust to drastic change.
True, however there are different ways to do it, I think its Denmark? that gets more than double the yield/acre than the world average utilizing a lot of greenhouses and what amounts to pretty much hydroponics lite. If half of agriculture land suddenly didn't need to be used that way it would be huge.
Yep absolutely! Animal agriculture is really the main issue when it comes to this and the amount of food we would have to grow would be much less if we didn’t feed most of it to animals to eat. Our economic system could definitely incentivize there being more farmers who practice more labor intensive agriculture to improve yields and reduce soil degradation and water use.
I wonder which humans are the virus 🤔
Humans are inherently adaptive to their environment. Our bodies obviously change, but so do our minds. Our habits, our emotional responses, our beliefs of what is possible and what is necessary, all change depending on how we grew up and the world we see around us. It takes a lifetime to unlearn all the harmful lessons of a fucked up youth, and almost everyone has had a youth fucked up to be burdened with plenty of traumas to pass on to the next generation. And that's on top of all the pain that the natural world can bring.
Humans are the dumbest possible species capable of doing science well enough to reach escape velocity from the physical limits of the ecological niche they evolved to occupy, but we're also the only species, seemingly in the nearest billion light years. We're the best shot this part of the universe has at bringing peace and joy to the natural world, including ourselves. And we are getting better at it, slowly and with many setbacks. There have been countless plagues and extinction events in the history of our world that have caused tremendous damage to the ecosystem, and we're the first to try to mitigate itself.
If we manage to change fast enough to mitigate most of the crisis we are creating, we will build a better world than could have ever have been without us. A world where mammals live unburdened by parasites and parasites live unburdened by mammal immune systems. A world where people grow strong and healthy and loving and open and connected and sharply intelligent because our environments help us grow into our best selves. Food forests, friendships, peace and prosperity and labors of love.
We already know it is possible. We already know we could belong there. We all dream of such a world no matter how strangely contorted our sense of how to get there has become. We just have to keep building our social structures to get ahead of our technological power.
And humans allowed capitalism to happen and have historically throughout history allowed a small handful of powerful people to take control and make everything shitty until things collapse soooooo. Capitalism is just a symptom of the disease
"Slavery is the slaves' fault because they allowed themselves to be enslaved."
Now you're getting it
The duck knows what's up
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