You shouldn't have to vote for evil just because the other side is more evil. Dont get me wrong... I did and will again but I shouldn't have to and I wont fault anyone for not. I have enough people to hate already.
this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2025
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Pragmatic Leftist Theory
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The neolibs are too far right. The tankies are doing whatever that is. Where's the space for the people who want fully-automated-luxury-gay-space-communism, but realize that it's gonna take a while and there are lots of steps between now and then? Here. This is that space.
Here, people should endeavor to discuss and devise practical, actionable leftist action. Vote lesser evil while you build grassroots coalitions. Unionize your workplace. Participate in SRAs. Build cohesion your local community. Educate the proletariat.
This is a place for practical people to develop practical plans to implement stable, incremental improvement.
If you're dead-set on drumming up all 18,453 True Leftists® into spontaneous Revolution, go somewhere else. The grown ups are talking.
Rules:
-1. Don't be a dick. Racism, sexism, other assorted bigotries, you know the drill. At least try to default to mutually respectful discussion. We're all on the same side here, unless you aren't, in which case kindly leave.
-2. Don't be a tankie. Yes I'm sure you have an extensive knowledge of century-old theory. There's been a century of history since then. Things didn't shake out as expected, maybe consider the possibility that a different angle of attack might be more effective in light of new data.
-3. Be practical. No one on the left benefits from counterproductive actions. This is a space informed by, not enslaved to, ideology. Promoting actions that are fundamentally untenable in the system in question, because they fulfill a sense of ideological purity, is a bad look. Don't do that.
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"Shouldn't have to" in a just world, but we don't live in a just world. Imagine advocating, for example, for the USSR to be abandoned to the Nazis, because the USSR was also a bunch of genocidal imperialist scumbags.
Choosing the lesser evil is not morally optional if your choices are reduced to only evils.
I don't have the 'luxury' of feeling neutrally about people who've very quite possibly fucking killed me in the next few years.
Grow up. It sucks to jave to choose the lessetlr evil but it is by definition better than the greater evil, and these people yoi don't fault were6directly responsible for causing gje greater evil when they refused to make that choice. They have blood on their hands, and a lot of it.
The 3.5% of people bro, the Epstein files bro, the lawsuits bro trust me, home more lawsuit and we defeat facism..
Disgusting. They sacrifice innocents and not for a sure thing either.
Not even for a serious chance, which they would know if they paid attention to any of the history they claim to be inspired by. Revolutions do not spring out of discontent; discontent is widespread in numerous non-revolting societies. Revolutions spring out of groundwork, the long, boring, tedious task of organizing, educating, and raising class consciousness. The thing these people are so goddamn sure will spontaneously arise once the state gets totalitarian enough, like North Korea.
I love that my existence has to be 'earned' according to these people. If Blue Circus isn't entertaining enough to 'earn' their vote, me and everyone else endangered by a fascist administration can go fuck ourselves.
Some of us may die, but that's a sacrifice the Purity Brigade is willing to make.
And what happens when team blue decides your minority group is an acceptable sacrifice, as they're currently doing for trans people? They already threw the Palestinian Americans on the pyre, and they're going for trans folks next.
The problem with looking the other way when some other group is thrown under the bus is that inevitably your ticket will be called. In 2028, it's going to be trans folks and their allies that are being bullied into supporting a conservative democrat like Newsom, even though he would take the Democrats the same direction as British Labor.
I just can't understand this hubris and arrogance. You actually expect people to vote for their own annihilation.
And what happens when team blue decides your minority group is an acceptable sacrifice, as they’re currently doing for trans people?
The vast majority of Dem politicians remain in support of trans issues.
They already threw the Palestinian Americans on the pyre, and they’re going for trans folks next.
The Dems have supported Palestinian genocide for at least the past forty fucking years. In that time, Dems have improved markedly on trans issues.
It's not as simple as you want it to be, but since simplicity would absolve you of your actual, real complicity in both the genocide of Palestinians and the additional crimes and genocides of the Trump administration, you crave simplicity.
The problem with looking the other way when some other group is thrown under the bus is that inevitably your ticket will be called.
You're absolutely right, this is why the civil rights movement should have refused all participation in American politics until LGBT rights were established as well.
By your logic, the Dems should have been throwing an ever-greater number of minorities under the bus since... what, the entire 20th century? Yet demonstrably, they have become more minority-positive, not less. I guess facts don't matter when you have fascists to carry water for, though, huh?
I just can’t understand this hubris and arrogance. You actually expect people to vote for their own annihilation.
"Please vote for less annihilation."
"Actually, I'd prefer more."
Sorry for finding self-destructive behavior that damages others as well both repugnant and strategically idiotic?
But sure, tell me how the Harris admin would have been more-destructive or even simply as-destructive towards Arab and Muslim-American communities than the fucking Trump admin, I'm dying to hear about how opting for the fascist was the real act of self-preservation.
It's not my vote they have to earn, it's the millions of people who are suffering under the current economic conditions. Telling them the maeket is better than ever while they can't make ends meet isn't going to swing any voters. Democrats need to either literally militarize against Trump or start offering tangible things to people that will help them. People know that Trump is bad, they just hope that he manages to change their situation somehow. But the Democrats dont care about working people (neither do the Republicans) and only want to help their boss/landlord.
That's a question of strategy, and I agree entirely. Dems are not offering what they need to be offering.
My point is that "Dems need to EARN my vote" is not a morally acceptable position for any individual to take, and should not be accepted as such - it's no different than saying "Marginalized demographics need to EARN the right to survive" - with the added humiliation and helplessness of being dependent on someone else's 'performance' to earn our lives.
People know that Trump is bad,
I think you overestimate the electorate. Most Americans are not 'tuned-in' to politics.
Good ol’ accelerationism.
"Don't bomb civilians" is a very low standard for politicians, idiot.
We shouldn't enable fascism by any means, especially in the information era. But, if fascism is already there, we should organize resistance and defend the people that suffer from it, by that building trust that builds our political capital, so to speak. But not enable it, as it fights more against us than against capitalism.
Godspeed. At this point, I'm trying to maintain my current routine of political activity so as to not to collapse into total despair and passivity. That path leads to death.
i'm sure the next old ghoul with a blue D on his shirt will save you from fascism.
also conflating socdems and libs with communists lol.
i’m sure the next old ghoul with a blue D on his shirt will save you from fascism.
Don't worry, I'm sure you'll still be advocating for the fascist then.
also conflating socdems and libs with communists lol.
... do you not know who Thalmann is.
Or do you not understand the quoted section is about his opposition to 'socdems and libs' in favor of cheerleading for fascists, just like you?
i like how you will not let go of the strawman that we are somehow campaigning for trump.
you should actually talk to leftists in good faith instead of this bullshit.
i like how you will not let go of the strawman that we are somehow campaigning for trump.
"I didn't campaign for Trump, I just worked against the anti-fascist coalition candidate!"
When there are only two choices and you work against one, you are supporting the other. I'm sorry if that's too complex for you to parse.
I'm sure you would've insisted that all sides were bad in WW2, and thus sat with your thumb up your ass as the Nazis genocided Europe.
you should actually talk to leftists in good faith instead of this bullshit.
I talk to plenty of good-faith leftists. Tankie fucks like you, on the other hand, can go fuck yourselves.
anti-fascist coalition candidate
WHAT???? which one????????
you mean the conservative fascist joe biden? the one funding concentration camps for immigrants before it was cool? or the one who massively ramped up genocide in gaza?
please come back to reality.
WHICH ONE???
Harris. The only one with a chance at victory. The only one with an actual coalition instead of a handful of purity-testers jerking each other off about how wonderful it would be to ensure a fascist victory.
you mean the conservative fascist joe biden? the one funding concentration camps for immigrants before it was cool? or the one who massively ramped up genocide in gaza?
Lord.
Harris.
you mean the actual cop openly saying they would keep up with the genocide? the one the party shoehorned in last minute? this your anti-fascist coalition? 🤡
you are not about to blame me for that clusterfuck are you?
you mean the cop openly saying they would keep up with the genocide? omg this your anti-fascist coalition? 🤡
Astounding. Any amount of bad-faith bullshit to bootlick for Nazis. Anything to support Palestinian genocide, it would seem - genocided Palestinians make great 'martyrs' for you to jerk yourself off with.
you are not about to blame me for that clusterfuck are you?
what
i'm still struggling to understand how hating you nazi apologists qualify as bootlicking them. or how being anti-genocide makes me support the genocide in any way.
here's you guys coming up with random bullshit again. is that strawman you are attacking soft and pliable enough for you?
feel free to cry more. i'm not arguing with someone who just want to dump their trauma onto someone else, have a nice day and please go back to reddit.
i’m still struggling to understand how hating you nazi apologists qualify as bootlicking them. or how being anti-genocide makes me support the genocide in any way.
"I don't understand how acting against the less-genocidal of the two choices supports the more-genocidal of the two choices!"
Yes, that's about the towering intellect I expect from Nazi bootlickers like you.
Tell me more about how the Finns in the Continuation War actually weren't helping the Nazis at all.
feel free to cry more. i’m not arguing with someone who just want to dump their trauma one someone else, have a nice day.
Nazis and running away - name a more iconic duo.
Enjoy Argentina!
Here we go. Those damn Arabs always get bombed at the most inconvenient time, it's like they're doing it on purpose /s maybe they deserve it after all innit
YOUR PARTY KILLED 50k PEOPLE YOU FUCKING SCUM HOW DARE YOU WEAPONISE THE SUFFERING OF THE PEOPLE YOUR COUNTRY BOMBED? PIECE OF SHIT
Harris was the VP under a genocidal administration you denialist cunt
They'll never save me from fascism because I'll never vote for anyone with a D by their name!
'Liberals always choose fascism!'
*Divides Poland*
*This*
In 1932 the libdems weren't bombing civilians were there?
I love that you still hate yourself for voting for a genocider lmao
Stop projecting.
the number of 3rd party voters would not have affected the outcome if they all voted for harris and her support of genocide.
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-ELECTION/RESULTS/zjpqnemxwvx/
want to win against nazis? stop putting nazis up in your own “progressive” party. (for those who don’t get it: harris is a nazi)
the number of 3rd party voters would not have affected the outcome if they all voted for harris and her support of genocide.
The number of protest abstainers was literal millions of voters, including almost 10 million 2020 Biden voters.
want to win against nazis? stop putting nazis up in your own “progressive” party. (for those who don’t get it: harris is a nazi)
Lord.
i mentioned only 3rd party voters maybe i misunderstood the op. my bad.
but yes. harris had a year to push against the genocide she supported. this makes her involved in crimes against humanity an not worth running. next dem primary, if the rug is not pulled from us AGAIN, I’ll again vote for the person not ok with genocide.
Harris was not worth running, I agree.
Unfortunately, if the choices are reduced to "Harris" or "Trump", the answer - from a position of harm reduction - should be obvious.
We fight the mainstream Dems when we can, where we can. I'm a two-time Bernie voter, and if he'd ran in the 2024 primaries, I would've voted for him again. But that's also not an excuse to let fascists win in the general election. No one was saved by preventing Harris from winning - many people - including many more Palestinians - will die because Trump got into office.
i do not disagree. however i just could not cast my vote for genocide even if she’s less genocide than trump. it’s a binary thing with me. i could not not vote too. sigh.
the dem primary process is always so… “gummy”
As a Canadian poet-philosopher once said, "If you choose not to decide/You still have made a choice."
When presented with the option of lesser evil or greater evil, if you say "Whatever everyone else decides is fine with me", which is what abstaining or protest voting in a FPTP system with two near-majority support candidates is, you have chosen in favor of the eventual victor. Which was, unfortunately, the fucking fascist in this case.
Every candidate in my lifetime for either party has been in favor of the ongoing Palestinian genocide by Israel, to varying degrees of support. Yet if I were to find myself in 2000, the thought of refusing to cast a vote for Gore over Bush is morally repugnant - Gore supported Israel, but Bush supported Israel more and, with the benefit of hindsight (and probably some contemporary analysis as well), cause millions of additional deaths outside of that as well.
No amount of "Nader was the better candidate" changes what that abstention or protest vote means, in practical terms, of what a citizen is supporting. It means increasing the chances of the worse candidate winning - it means increasing the chances of millions more dying for no gain of substance to anyone - including the people you're claiming to protest for - and in many cases, this case included, at their further expense.
i get that. i do. but we “finally” had a candidate that was outwardly anti-genocide.
i wish we had ranked choice voting.
If you get it, why didn’t you vote for her?
because harris supports genocide, which outranks all theory about how outcomes happen with other solutions for voting. why were you ok voting for genocide?
why were you ok voting for genocide?
Because the alternative was more genocide.
I don't pretend that my vote in 2020 for Biden was anything less than a vote for an admin which unambiguously was going to (and did) support Israel in-line with the policy of previous administrations (and, unfortunately, the vast majority of the American population) - which is repugnant and in support of a genocidal ethnostate. But that vote was also against the immensely more Israel-positive Trump administration which proposed MORE support for genocide than the Biden administration did.
We bear the sin of supporting the lesser evil, because not supporting the lesser evil, when there is only a choice between evils, is in support of the greater evil.
The price of citizenship is responsibility. The price of citizenship is the demand to make imperfect decisions in concert with an imperfect population which will always result in some form of atrocious outcome. The price of citizenship is guilt. If you want to be innocent of political responsibility, well, that's why oligarchies and autocracies are so intermittently popular.
i enjoyed your replies. thank you.
Glad to be of interest. Ultimately, I'm of the opinion that no one should beat themselves up too much about their prior action or lack of action - we can't change the past, and most of us are little specks in nations of millions, and a world of billions. All we can do is try to work for a better future.
So, you don’t get it.
i get that. i do. but we “finally” had a candidate that was outwardly anti-genocide.
Who? De La Cruz and Stein were both in favor of Ukrainian genocide.
i wish we had ranked choice voting.
Yeah.
Rush were MASSIVE libertarian disciples of Ayn Rand who blamed the rise of punk rock on "the failures of socialism". Maybe they aren't who you want to be quoting right now.
So who do you think the 10 million people are that voted for Biden in 2020 but not Harris are?
Do you think that they are leftists who refused to vote? Because if that is true, then the Democrats ABSOLUTELY needed their support and should have done everything they could to court that group instead of the couple dozen old Bush supporters that don't like Trump, such as the Cheneys.
Do you think that they are just normal, politically illiterate people who saw their quality of life plummet the past 4 years? Why didn't the Dems do more to help them and get them to take time off from their second job to fo vote? Why was the Democrats message fail to resonate with them?
Do you think that they were put off by Kamala's race/gender? So then why did the Democrats force her as the candidate instead of holding an actual primary? Was she just a glass cliff candidate so that they could run the same terrible campaign and just blame the voters instead?
Whatever way you want to slice it, the Democrats lost in 2024 because they have zero idea what their voters want/need. They only care about their corporate donors. The Democrats keep loosing elections and you keep blaming voters instead of the party that keeps loosing.
The Democrats keep loosing elections and you keep blaming voters instead of the party that keeps loosing.
This may be a shock, but more than one actor can be at fault at once. Yes, really.
People who refuse to vote against literal, explicit, clearly stated fascism are at fault for literal fascism winning elections.
The Dem Party, by being varying degrees of incompetent and self-absorbed, is also at fault for failing to win over voters who don't give a fuck how many minorities die.
Sorry that you feel that welcoming fascists into power has no moral implications.