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this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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"We should let the authoritarian government redo the elections until they get the result they want."
Isn't it reasonable when both parties are claiming election fraud? Force a UN-overseen election on paper ballots.
It's not like Maduro is going to give up power either way.
When one party claims election fraud and has receipts, and the other party claims no election fraud, that they won, and that they don't have to reveal their evidence, the correct response is not "Both sides disagree, so let's just do it over again!"
Just logically speaking, a do over makes no sense because it was never the voting process that was in doubt. Both sides agree that the votes were all valid, they just disagree on the count... by a lot.
Well, they disagree about that and the need for any kind of transparency at all. Apparently Maduro thinks that elections should be run on the honor system.
Would you prefer a civil war or an invasion to fix it then?
So combined with
It rather sounds like your end conclusion is "Let Maduro stay in power, who gives a fuck about democracy"?
Wow it'd be crazy if I'd advanced an alternative at the start to completely eliminate any pretense he has instead.
Redoing the election only takes pressure off Maduro. It's an empty gesture to appease the opposition for a time, which just gives Maduro room to plan for stealing the next election. And it drags things out for longer, which can easily cause some of the energy to be drained from his opposition, because movements like this tend to fade out after a while.
And what could possibly be the point? If he won't concede this time, next time won't be any different.
Better to keep putting as much pressure as possible on Maduro and his regime. No reason to make hanging on to power any easier for him, and even if he can't be convinced to bow out gracefully, if things get bad enough for him, the decision might not be his to make.
They know that. That's exactly the point of trying to deflect and downplay this whole fiasco.
You mean when you said
?
Give him a do-over, and then acquiesce to the fact that he's not giving up power even if he loses again. This must be some new form of democracy that I'm unfamiliar with.
Or you remove all pretense he has and his support either evaporates or is forced to publicly renounce democracy.
But I bet you don't really care about that, you've already got a preference for which nation leads the invasion, huh?
As you said
So what does that matter? "Oh, he has no support now though!" So? People like you will still be wringing your hands and crying "B-b-but what if there's a civil war??? We can't provoke him! Living in a fascist state is better than that, because it's MY kind of fascist, and fuck what the Venezuelan people think!"
Yeah, Brazil. But I guess that's not as convenient a boogeyman as the US for justifying your favored fascists.
The US has enough foreign affairs to be handling at the moment. If there is going to be outside intervention, the Venezuelan people must take up arms in defense of their own rights first; and then that outside support should come from the region, not from a distant superpower.
Any other fascist apologia you wanna engage in?
Brazil agrees they should to do another election... Kind of the point of the article.
And if they do another election and Maduro still refuses to concede, you'll still be sitting here saying
No, I'd say "guess you guys need to do a civil war then"
But that's their business. Not America's, and not even Brazil's.
It's called self determination, maybe you've heard of it?
Oh, so stealing one election is fine, but two is just a bit too much for you? What's the calculus on this for how many elections have to be blatantly stolen before it's permissible to oppose the government?
Just enough of their business that you're interested in supporting a second election after the Venezuelan people have already spoken. What a conveniently placed arbitrary line you've drawn.
"Self-determination is when you choose to support an authoritarian regime and oppose support to the democratically elected opposition, and the more you support the authoritarian regime, the more self-determined it is."
Alternatively, "Self-determination is when you tell a voting population that their vote doesn't count and they have to redo it until their authoritarian government decides to tell the truth about the outcome; it'll happen someday, promise!"
Lol, not invading other countries is supporting authoritarianism?
According to the guy who knows better than all of Venezuela's neighbors, mind you.
Saying "Wh-what do you want to happen, a civil war??? Better to just let Maduro hold onto power, he's not going to give it up anyway 🥺" is supporting authoritarianism. It is, in fact, downright fascist apologia to try to suppress the voice of a people who have spoken out in favor of change in their government and instead insist on letting the jingoistic ultranationalist government sending dissenters to prison camps to stay in power for as long as it wants.
But I'm sure you know that. That's why you're saying it, after all.
Maybe on the sixth or seventh stolen election, they'll get Maduro to give up. They just need to vote harder, right?
Oh yes, Venezuela's neighbors, well-known for recognizing Maduro's re-election
Brazil and Columbia, literally in this article: Do another election with more oversight
Lemming Expert: NOOO WAR IS THE ONLY WAY TO FORCE MADURO OUT >:(
Another election happens. More oversight. Maduro still says "No, we won". You still say "W-what do you want to do about it??? WAR??? Wouldn't it be so much better if Venezuelans just rolled over and let the fascists stomp all over them? 🥺"
Like, did you forget that there was oversight for this election too? But anything to lick fascist boots, I guess.
"Use the international pressure to force them to accept stronger oversight and more secure measures"
"Reeeeee what good will that do I want BLOOD and a FOREIGN REGIME CHANGE"
Again, what does that matter? There was oversight this time. It didn't matter, because the government just said "No, we won." No matter how badly they lose, ultimately, without enforcement mechanisms, from the Venezuelan people or from external support, there is no way to enforce the results of an election. But you know that, of course. You only advocate for people to "Vote harder" when you know it'll do nothing.
My favorite part is where you said it's none of any outside country's business, and now you're arguing the complete opposite; that there should be international pressure to force the issue in Venezuela. 10/10 consistency. Anything to bootlick for fascism, I guess.
Like, you fucking started this conversation saying that Maduro wouldn't give up power even if there was a second election, which pretty nakedly gives up the game when you're arguing that there should be a second election and that violence is unacceptable for the opposition to use.
Ah, yes, much different than "Blood and no regime change", but I guess protesters getting gunned down in the streets and shipped off to labor camps is just wholesome left praxis to you, huh? The proles have to turn the other cheek, but the fascist regime gets to kill whoever it wants to.
?
Israel kills more people every day than Maduro's regime has since the election. I don't see you arguing for an invasion of Israel...
I wonder what the difference is to you. Since you're such a strong anti-fascist, you'd think you'd be more concerned about an active genocide than an internal struggle where, apparently, nothing but boots on the ground will suffice.
I have openly said previously that I would be in favor of literal war with Israel. So, you know, maybe it's just you that simps for fascist regimes because they're led by 'the right people'.
lmao, keep making up strawmen to attack.