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[โ€“] iii@mander.xyz 101 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

Every year they try to push this same shit with a new name. One day there will be a reichstag fire and it will be passed.

So fucking transparant, yet I don't see a way to stop them.

[โ€“] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 28 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

The rough quote is, we have to win against this every time. They only have to win once.

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 19 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Pretty straightforward: join anarchist groups like the ccc and the fau, vote radical left and tell everyone you know to do the exact same. It already helps in some areas, just keep doing it.

[โ€“] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

And how do you ensure that the "radical left" doesn't support surveillance measures? Not like the ideology has a good track record on that matter.

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You mean like every other government? I dont. Radical leftists stand for human rights. Of course there is a chance that they get coopted. But every other political ideology does not need to get coopted to oppress people.

[โ€“] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Most moderate anything government doesn't even begin to come anywhere close to the control of a "radical" leftist state.

What is your basis for "radical" leftists standing for human rights? Radical leftists are rarely liberally minded. I don't disagree that many left-wing parties stand for decency, environmental protection, and various rights - but "radicals" do not.

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You are making assumptions. It shows that you dont have any idea of leftism.

The idea of leftism is that people (and animals in most cases) are the same and deserve their needs met.

You can criticize the measures taken to ensure this, especially in capitalist societies where you may have to use force to break capitalist resistance. If all you ever knew is rape, being disallowed to rape can feel repressive. But its still okay to repress it.

And it is okay to disagree on this. Thats why we have both anarchists and marxists. Massively simplified, one party wants to mentally arm the population and push for a self educating, politically mature population. The other one wants to change the system from the top and reeducate the public on cooperation and classless society while forcefully repressing the regressive ideas.

They both actually want the same, communism. The classless, stateless society.

Of course that is an ideal, a utopia that might never be real but the millions of people dying under capitalism every year and the exploited people all over the world, the exploited planet that is starting to kick us out are WAY worse than all that has been seen before. The strongest argument for marxism is the limited time we have before we will just die out (starting with those who already are exploited the most today).

[โ€“] endeavor@sopuli.xyz -3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

no thanks, no person who waves around hammer and cycle gives two shits about betterment of mankind, the same way someone waving a swastika around does not.

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Interesting take. What makes you say that?

[โ€“] endeavor@sopuli.xyz -2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

the insane number of atrocities and murders commited under the hammer and cycle flag and the modern commies love of whitewashing and apologizing for it. Nobody who wants the world to be better for everyone would not call themselves a communist.

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Okay. So you dont mean communism or socialism, you are talking about a symbol. So if one took lets say, a wave, would it be okay then to have people housed and fed?

[โ€“] endeavor@sopuli.xyz -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I get you dont think eastern europeans are real people and their lives or suffering matters but commies are same as nazis to us: they both want to mass murder.

Why the fuck would anyone who is not selfish rally behind a symbol of oppression, mass murder, authoritarianism, war, propaganda and economic decline? If you have no issues waving hammer and cycle around, you have issues.

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Nice ad hominem bro.

I have family from eastern europe. I also have family from east germany.

You know what they say? You know what the majority of the people who lived that era say? Its much worse now.

People using stalin and national socialism to discredit the idea of communism and socialism need to start reading books. Its really important to start having actual discussions without personally attacking folks. These shortcirtuited propaganda ridden hateposts wont convince me and they wond convince anyone who is able to read a book.

People in eastern germany, infamously, didnt have bananas most of the year. You know what they also didnt have? Homeless people, starving people. Today that is the case A LOT.

Of course it was interesting and promising for people to come to western germany from socialist or communist countries back then. But its not because they had to fear for their lives because they couldnt afford to pay the rent or their food.

The most important part is that authoritarian governments are not what leftism is about, its not what socialism or communism is about.

Here's interesting stuff from a pretty reliable source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare

Have fun reading. It will help.

[โ€“] endeavor@sopuli.xyz -3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Socialism is good, everyone deserves the same opportunities and safety net.

You cant remove communism for the mass murder. You cant forget the people starved to death or worked to death in name of communism. Fuck everyone waving that flag the same way fuck everyone waving a nazi flag. If that offends you, go cry.

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I get that you're triggered but it is not okay to attack other people like this.

Please read a book. It will help you. Get off the internet for a moment and start reading. Understand what people mean when they say communism instead of trying to get them to shut up. We will never shut up. You will always get triggered and hurt other people. That is literally what we are trying to stop.

The definition of communism is the classless, stateless society. You're not even referencing anything in particular. What you - i think - are talking about is stalinism. That i havent been too much into yet. I have heard about the infamous gulags which apparently have been horrendous.

Btw its also illegal in the country i live in to compare what the nazis in the holocausy did with anything else. We call it holocaust relativism.

[โ€“] endeavor@sopuli.xyz -3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I get its now cool to wave around symbols of mass murder regimes and stomp all over those who were murdered in the name of it on lemmy.

Since when its okay to not call out apologists for systems that have historically lead to mass fucking murder and countless atrocities beyond human comprehension every single time?

You're all morals and no facts. Nobody said murder, let alone mass murder would be okay.

You dont like the symbol i get it.

Now stop with the strawmen. Its not what is happening here.

[โ€“] klao@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I didn't know about those groups, thanks for bringing light to it although I'd be wary of voting radical left unless the alternative is only a right-winger

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 13 points 3 days ago (2 children)

"Wary" of radical left why exactly?

[โ€“] wewbull@feddit.uk 4 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Radical right and radical left. You should be wary of both of them because they are radical.

  • Radical plans often need to be enforced to be accepted
  • Enforcing political will is authoritarian.
  • I'm anti-authoritarian above everything else.
[โ€“] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 days ago

The current center was extremely radical for most of human history. And if you think that centrist politics don't need to be enforced then I would encourage you to pick up a history book.

[โ€“] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 days ago

The current center was extremely radical for most of human history. And if you think that centrist politics don't need to be enforced then I would encourage you to pick up a history book.

[โ€“] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Ah, a "centrist". So how much killing of people is central enough for you? How much genocide?

The idea of "radical = bad" is a trick. It's got zero to do with reality.

Example: depending on where you ask, radical means entirely different things. Read about the overtone window.

That said, radical leftism is about human rights. It is about destroying hierarchies between people. In short it means: everyone gets what they need and does what they can. Or "food, water, housing are inalienable rights."

The radical right is about superiorism. White power, discrimination and ultimately destruction of what they view as "lesser" be it people who look different, have different ancestral history etc.

And you think its smart to compromise between the two? I suggest reading books.

[โ€“] wewbull@feddit.uk 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

So how much killing of people is central enough for you? How much genocide?

Very non-radical actions you asking me to support.

From all of that I get that you're someone who thinks it's left Vs right. Two positions, Two ends of a line. If you're not at one end, you're at the other and what lies in-between (if anything) is grey, cowardly, compromising, compliant lemmings.

..and you're telling me to read books? This is the most juvenile and laziest of political thinking. You need to grow beyond thinking anyone that doesn't agree with you must either be the enemy or a collaborator. At least get past one-dimensional thinking.

And it's the Overton window (not "overtone") after Joseph Overton, a US libertarian and free-market supporter. He came up with the concept to describe how think-tanks should manipulate public opinion to consider what was previously unthinkable, particularly in a free-market direction. Of course, that's all lost now it's become part of pop-politics.

You're funny.

I said we should not compromise on these things, you're trying to make a strawman, and badly.

You started with the left vs right debate and are attacking me ad hominem with it.

Your way of discussion is massively out of line and very condescending.

Also, trying to top my point of the overtone (its not important if i spell it correctly, get over yourself) window is childish, while you're accusing me of being exactly that. That was massively ableist too.

You're the exact reason why people with a brain dont like centrists. They're just fashists undercover. The same attack methods, the same disregard for human rights and decency.

Next you say feminists, vegans or climatechange activists are hurting the cause because they're "too loud". Honestly, people in the thousands die every day because people like you say " what can you do?!" Instead of "maybe we stop that"

Anyway. As you can imagine, i dont allow people with less than decent communication style in my feed. So go spill your poison somewhere else.

[โ€“] umbrella@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

organize with a leftist collective. this is the way to stop capitalism.

[โ€“] iii@mander.xyz 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I fear that's an oversimplification, seeing how both the socialist and the marxist MEPs from Belgium voted pro last time (1)

[โ€“] umbrella@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

then its possible they are revisionists (ie not really marxists)

this really does complicate things, not unlike the US situation, but it can still be taken over or superseded by a better organization.

i'm not well versed in belgium socialism though. you are the ones who will have to figure out how to navigate this.

what i can tell you for absolute sure is keeping it in the hands of capitalist oligarchs is 100% guaranteed to lose you this war, even if you manage to push back on yet another battle.

[โ€“] iii@mander.xyz 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Maybe you're not a real marxist and they are ๐Ÿค”

[โ€“] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

supporting a capitalist surveillance apparatus isn't socialist at all. as i said, though, i have no idea about how that movement works in belgium, so you tell me.

what i do know is that none of you quite got my point that this is a capitalist project promoted by capitalist oligarchs, and you will not get rid of these attempts without attacking them more directly.

[โ€“] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk -2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

"No true Scotsman".

We don't have to think in political leanings following the left-right paradigm. Parties and persons considered "leftist" aren't inherently good, nor is the other side inherently bad. Don't limit yourself by identifying with just one ideology. In case you didn't realise, socialists tend to like surveillance as well

[โ€“] umbrella@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Parties and persons considered โ€œleftistโ€ arenโ€™t inherently good

i said almost exactly this in my comment, i think you misunderstood my intent. its ok, english is not my first language.

but i'm sorry, fascists are inherently bad.

socialists tend to like surveillance as well

socisliats aren't inherently fond of surveillance. most i know are not, including myself.

Donโ€™t limit yourself by identifying with just one ideology.

i really don't. in contemporary politics, though, its either capitalism or anti-capitalism. right or left. unless you are a feudalist or something.

[โ€“] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Of course fascists are bad and can go fuck themselves - but not all "right wingers" are fascists.

Socialist regimes are inherently fond of surveillance. Indiviuals can have any given stance on it. Politically involved people - minus fascists - tend to have stances against surveillance and for data protection.

There's a lot of nuance inbetween "capitalist" and "anti-capitalist". I'm not here to defend capitalism but this black-and-white worldview often held by self-proclaimed left-wingers is offputting to the very masses that they claim to represent to such a degree that the working class would rather shoot themselves in the foot by voting for fascists and fascist-adjacents rather than support "crazy leftists". In the modern age it's an ideology of a lot of talk and studies and very few results.

[โ€“] umbrella@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

not all โ€œright wingersโ€ are fascists

i never claimed this. a big portion of right wingers are fascists nowadays, at least in my country. though "regular" right wingers are there in the form of centrists and liberals, you strike me as someone in this group.

Socialist regimes are inherently fond of surveillance

socialist "regimes" are not inherently fond of surveillance. you are probably thinking of china specifically. none of the other currently socialist countries do the same.

Thereโ€™s a lot of nuance inbetween โ€œcapitalistโ€ and โ€œanti-capitalistโ€.

again, i never claimed otherwise. but you are either in the "capitalist" spectrum, or the "anti-capitalist" spectrum. you seem to be projecting this rigid black and white viewpoint onto me.

very few results

we don't have the entire state apparatus in our favor, nor the means to directly counter the abundant and persistent anticommunist propaganda spewed by capitalist states.

ill remind you, though, that more than half the world's population is living under socialism. successfully at that. maybe you guys should give it a fair try before dismissing it as ineffective.

[โ€“] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 0 points 2 days ago

I definitely disagree we're seeing as terrible rise of fascist ideology; oligarchs controlling the flow of information on the internet is the biggest threat towards human existence.

I wouldn't even say I'm a regular right-winger, or any kind of wing really, I mainly simply don't believe in the effectiveness of extremes.

What nations would you consider "properly" socialist? Isn't a prerequisite for achieving acommunist society a period of socialist government preparing the people's spirits? Also, even 'socialism" is a spectrum; if any government with progressive taxes is "socialist" then yes, you have plenty of states you can include. Mind you, I'm from Scandinavia - a region often mentioned as an example of socialist policies - but the system is fundamentally capitalist for better and worse.

Sorry if I'm projecting a bit too much onto you! I don't like capitalism, but I don't find it realistic or achieveable to rid yourself of it in a meaningful way; history has shown that a new upper class emerges once the heads of the former have been cut off. Power. It's human nature and it always will be. The best bet is to compromise and pressure capitalist systems as much as possible. Which camp am in?

I don't know who "you guys" are; I'm not American at least. I have a more specific definition of "socialism" than just living under a system that taxes the rich and has a degree of national control over the means of production