210
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023
210 points (87.8% liked)
World News
39004 readers
2608 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
It could both be that he told them to avoid civilians AND that fighters still attacked and killed civilians.
That being said, there is actually some evidence to sugeest that a number of October 7 deaths were caused by the IDF itself handling the situation badly and with little regard to the lives of the residents of one kibbutz. According to some eye witnesses, the soldiers who responded to the attack caused a number of homes to be demolished, and later bodies of civilians were found under the rubble. This is more consistent with what we see Israel doing in Gaza with no regard to the lives of Gazans nor the hostages.
Don't get me wrong though, of course everyone will say they ordered their troops to not kill civilians. Even Israel does it and look at the result. Hamas shouldn't have held any civilian hostages, especially not children and elderly that need care they are unlikely able to provide.
Issue is the Hamas are not an regular military force which makes it hard to target them, they are terrorists and exclusively targeting civilians. Every death on the 7th of october is related to them in the end, because they have decided to actively engage on civilians.
This is all fine except Hamas does not exclusively target civilians. It has been only targeting military vehicles and tanks since the incursion in Gaza (not counting the rockets dropped on Israeli areas, that don't seem to be causing any casualties).
And sadly almost every death since October 7 has been caused by Israel directly killing civilians in Gaza.
We can twist the truth all we want but Hamas aren't blanket terrorists (and I quite dislike them and their dumb strategy). Let's not romanticize calling them some extrwme thing removed from details and context.
Can you provide evidence that they exclusively target civilians given the fact that they have mostly attacked armed forces since the kibbutz was taken back?
Hamas are a lot of shitty things but this claim is factually false. And because it's factually false, I can't consider it much more than propaganda.
you want evidence from me that the attacks on the 7th of october were exclusively targeted at civilians?
Read my comment again, I'm talking about AFTER that.
How about every rocket Hamas has fired towards an area that isn't a military base. That should give you several thousand data points...
So the IDF handeld a situation very badly and killed a number of civilians, the cause of all that would still be the terrorist act on civlians by the hamas. It does not alter any of the points I made earlier:
The Hamas and any other terrorist group are rabid dogs, they need to go if we ever want a free Palestine and (!) a free Israel.
What Bullshit propaganda are you on? If israel kills it's own civilians it's their fault. They can't just spray fire their tanks and machine guns into their own Kibbutzes and then blame Hamas lmao.
Israel's response to Hamas is disproportionate and careless on purpose. There is blood on many hands, but those now being starved and dying of disease and bombed hospitals is 100% Israel's action opposed by the rest of the world. Almost Every specialist, every human rights official, every person who is qualified to comment on this is saying Israel is causing civilian deaths, crossing lines, and committing collective punishment. We are not talking about a few thousands here and there that the IDF tried to protect but couldn't... We are talking about 10k deaths, 2k under the rubble. This is not collateral damage.
okay, was not the point of our discussion and I did not say otherwise but thanks for sharing it I guess...
I tend to disagree on the collective punishment point, but that's fine everybody can have his or her opinion :)
consistently moving the goalposts is one of the core hallmarks of a bad faith argument. you handled it very well!
Yeah Israel starving people is totally not like the goddamn holocaust. /s
"Opinions", how convenient it is to have them while people just die on the hands of Israel.
Okay that went very fast into holocaust relativism... no thank you, I don't want to be part of this discussion anymore, let's end it here on a polite note.
And just to make it clear, as a german I learned, "the Holocaust was a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered approximately 6 million European Jews" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) therefor I find it highly inappropriate to use this very term for the situation in the middle east or as a comparison to it.
Sorry, if Israel doesn't want holocaust relativism it should stop doing very holocausty things like starving people and killing medical patients and the medics and the journalists, god I'm out of fucking words.
"Never again" includes Palestinians. If it doesn't today, then it's not living up to its meaning.
or maybe you just should stop holocaust relativism 🤷♂️
Maybe you shouldnt sympathize with Nazi's. Did they teach you Germans nothing in school?
or maybe Israel just should stop repeating the holocaust on another group of people.
being shitty and inflammatory is really gonna convince people you’re on the side that cares
Look buddy, if you can't see that this collective punishment and against international law then I can't help you.
Buddy, if you can’t proofread a single sentence comment then I don’t know that I want your help.
Meh
The soldiers probably made it all worst, but Hamas 100% caused civilian casualties. Even if Hamas members didn't cause them, remember that Hamas asked anyone who had a weapon and was willing to storm the border with them to go in. There are videos of them dragging around wounded civilians and soldiers.
This is all fine except Hamas does not exclusively target civilians. It has been only targeting military vehicles and tanks since the incursion in Gaza (not counting the rockets dropped on Israeli areas, that don't seem to be causing any casualties).
And sadly almost every death since October 7 has been caused by Israel directly killing civilians in Gaza.
We can twist the truth all we want but Hamas aren't blanket terrorists (and I quite dislike them and their dumb strategy). Let's not romanticize calling them some extrwme thing removed from details and context
I know that Hamas doesn't exclusively target civilians. Hamas as the government of Gaza probably wouldn't risk their public image by instructing it's militants to target civilians, but their militants did cause civilian casualties and some of them looked like they were out for vengeance.
The rockets that Hamas fires are primitive and cannot be guided, and sometimes wind or other factors cause them to miss their targets. They have been targeting nearby civilian areas after giving warnings (lol), and while they are not as much of a terrorist organization as the IDF, they still have committed acts of terrorism on multiple occasions.
wow.
Well, I am sorry, but calling yourself a defense force doesn't make your terrorism more acceptable. Your forces still target civilians, take and torture hostages, terrorize people in peaceful areas, arm and defend criminals, and target and suppress journalists. Having a court acquit your heinous crimes doesn't make them more justifiable either.
I hope this is understandable.
My bad, looks like that response was meant for the other person who claimed they only target civilians.