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Four more Israeli hostages have died in Hamas custody
(www.nbcnews.com)
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this post was submitted on 03 Jun 2024
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"in Hamas custody", or killed by Israeli strikes? So far all the hostages have died from actions by Israel. The difference is extremely important in this case and the weasel word title doesn't help with giving accurate info.
Edit: it's worth pointing out that this is not OPs fault, but the fault of the news org
However they died, they were paramedics, meaning they helped people. So this is a loss regardless. Just two more senseless deaths wrought by both the IDF and Hamas since October 7th.
People are getting so caught up in Israel's genocidal bullshit (which is heinous and horrific, to be explicit so I don't get dog piled) that they seem to be forgetting that Hamas is a literal terrorist group that would happily kill us all, and also subjugates Palestinians. They did take hostages, they have killed some, and they have treated them all very poorly by all accounts. You can hate both sides of this one guys, it's pretty easy.
Thanks for posting the article and your thoughts, Mr. Squid.
People have been so trained to pick a team and stick to it that the basic humanity of the situation has become difficult for some folks.
It’s not hard. Killing or harming innocent people or causing death or harm to come to them indirectly is bad. Conflating different groups of people to justify harm or death is not an excuse.
Yknow, I won't even say it's not hard. It can be so hard when you're bombarded by horrific images and stories every day. It sucks and it puts people into very passionate mindsets. Passion is the death of reason though, and we'd all be better served engaging our super ego a bit, taking a deep breath, and saying "Hey, I'm upset right now, but I need to try to look at this objectively". You don't have to shove anything under a rug. You don't have to make excuses for anyone. Just... try to think separate from your feelings. It's a useful exercise.
Israel is committing war crimes and genocide in Gaza. Hamas committed horrific acts of terrorism on Oct 6 and had continued to commit horrific acts concerning the hostages. We can keep going and listing every little thing going back millenia, but we cannot lose sight of the fact that both of these groups are religious extremism writ large, deserve condemnation, and are actively persecuting the Palestinian people.
I don't think we should completely neglect our passions. They make us who we are and define our truest selves! Passion is blinding though. Anyone who has ever felt true passion about anything knows this. It takes both passion and cold logic to achieve truly good things. Passion is inherently the stronger of the two though, so you have to set it aside (temporarily) to truly indulge your logic. Then put those together.
I definitely do not agree with using passion as the center of your political movement. That's demagoguery, by definition. It's common and we're all susceptible to it, but it's not a good thing.
I agree with you re: the origins of Hamas. It truly could not matter less right now. Hamas exists, and they're doing terrible things to Palestinians and Israelis alike, just like Israel is. They're both issues we need to solve and I'm not willing to set one aside for the other.
I'm just not sure I've gotten my point across to you bc93. I'm not asking anyone to become an emotionless automation. That's of course a nightmarish outcome. That's full logic, no passion. Bad. In that same exact manner, all passion, no logic is also horrible. The history of people who have done that is also extremely dark. Nobody is advocating for either of those though!
When I tell someone to "put yourself in someone else's shoes", I am not asking them to lose their sense of self or to base their final decision entirely on that other person. It's a thought mechanism we use to emphasize our sense of empathy, which gives us a new perspective that we fold into our amalgamation of ideas.
I'm not asking for anyone to turn their emotions off forever, or even deluded enough to think you can do that fully at all, in the same way that I don't expect anyone to fully convert their brain into another person's to empathize. It doesn't matter, it's still a useful exercise in part.
That's all I'm asking for. There is a lot of nuance and complexity to all situations, and passion is blinding. I'm not a Buddhist, but they have a concept of Bonno, those passions that inspire us to actions that harm ourselves or others. I don't think Buddhists are quite on the same level as Ben Shapiro and the Nazis just because they recognize that passion can be blinding.
I've never said that people should ignore any attempt at passion and just focus on their logic, but the modern mobs of righteous indignation and fury are ironically hugely lacking in empathy, tolerance (not of intolerance, before that gets tossed at me), and pragmatism.
I agree that we mostly seem to be on the same page, but I really need to stress that I have not asked people to be soulless and I think that's a mischaracterization of my asking for people to set their passion aside as much as possible as an exercise which is inherently temporary. We're both just looking for balance here.
I don't think there is many people who support hamas. ISIS needed to be cut down when they went on their rampage but let's not pretend they weren't created by the result of the US occupation.
Yep. Netanyahu publicly supported Hamas for just this reason - he knew they'd eventually provide justification to invade Gaza.
He and far too many Israelis don't want to work with the Palestinians to find a solution. The same can be said for the Palestinians.
Too many people in power who just want more of it.
Support? Nah, that's rare to the point of non-existence. I completely agree with your second sentence and I think people who are not willing to make the concession from the first half because of the second, substituting Hamas for ISIS, are doing themselves and Palestinians a massive disservice. Explanations are not excuses, and the behavior of both Israel and Hamas in the modern era cannot be excused.
I didn't post the article, just to be clear.
Lol whoops, saw the mod tag and just assumed since you're also a pretty prolific poster.
Who is “us all”? Are you colonizing Palestinian land and terrorizing Palestinians?
I'm just a member of the LGBT community. But also, I am an American, which means kinda, but not directly. Hamas does not have a rosy view on people from the US.
But also... Hamas terrorizes Palestinians as well, so not sure what point you're trying to make here.
Edit: Not sure who replied, but I have you blocked. Just didn't want you to have to wait for a response.
Wonder why they don't appreciate the people sending the bombs used to Genocide Palestinians. It must be the LGBT thing.
I keep saying it. Hamas knew what it was doing, and literally the whole world danced to the song they put on, and I'd be legit shocked if the ones in charge that came up with the attack are actually in the strip.
Hamas attacked Israel in one of the most aggressive and heinous methods that has been seen in a long while, the Israel that has a history of retaliating with absolute and overwhelming force with zero chill, at a time when the leadership of Israel was looking for an opportunity to invade. So Israel is gonna Israel, and now the Palestinians in Gaza who would go against Hamas, as you said that would be happy to subjugate the Palestinians, are going to be more supportive of Hamas where the two-state solution isn't even being as supported as it once was because the calls for revenge are coming.
Regionally, Israel gained it's zero-chill attitude because it was surrounded by countries that want to exterminate it, it's required western backing to keep there. But Egypt and Israel haven't been quite at each others throats as much anymore, and Saudi Arabia and Israel were working out a deal. This put Israel back at square one in terms of local diplomacy.
Western countries have had to be the supporters to Israel, it kinda exists in that sort of meddling. When Israel attacked the strip, there were multiple countries ready to throw in and escalate it from a small war to a full all out multi-national war. That much rattling sabers means the west continues its support, even when they hand the weapons to Israel to say 'don't use it over here.' and watches Israel do just that.
The west supporting Israel has only helped fan the flames of anti-semetic rhetoric with the feeling of Israel pulling an excess of political power upon itself. The right wing hawks are willing to help keep escalating the war because, well they've never had a problem starting wars in the Middle East. The political left is tearing itself apart because it typically is a coalition of differing beliefs, the US is having a problem that the not-ultra-right wing party of the Democrats got where they are because depending on the state it was coalitions of Muslim and Jewish voters, both of whom are mad and are threatening to stay home despite the other runner is someone who will make things worse, which could be the sort of thing to rally the religiously held Muslim countries together.
What angers me is how much of this I predicted when Hamas attacked. I'm just a guy who works on equipment, one would hope the world leaders would see this exact same train of thought and turn off the music instead of getting in line and waltzing to the beat.
Ah yes the people being Genocided inside of a concentration camp are actually the Genocidal ones.
Please remind us how israel gladly came to peace with the PA and totally doesn't commit ethnic cleansing on the West Bank.
Don't both sides this one. Israel killed these people.
The article doesn't do a good job of clarifying anything, but sounds like they died 10/7?
Israel is just announcing it now.
It's a propaganda move by Israel to make people think of them as victims again.
Is this true? Seems like it would be difficult to verify.
Well seeing as the org that was giving info related to casualties has been bombed into oblivion, yes it is hard to verify.
Likely killed by indiscriminate Israeli bombing. They don't know where hostages are being held, so any bomb could be the one that kills hostages, and they clearly don't care.
It's the hannibal directive again
Some keep ignoring the part where people became hostages.
Some keep ignoring the part where retaliation against a foreign nation conducting genocide against you for 70 years is not only justified and easy to understand, but fucking commendable. If Hamas weren't in fact backed by Israel, them taking hostages would've actually been something to get behind.
A retaliation that results in a predictable extermination is not commendable, it's stupid. Instead of spending resources on rockets they should've spent them on building universities that would help them better understand the situation and possible ways to deal with it effectively.
Oh wait, I'm being stupid. Rockets and terrorism all the way it is! Because it's easier and you get many internet points for calling it a "retaliation".
First of all..... They already had universities. Secondly, how exactly does "better understanding the situation" fix being held in a mass concentration camp?
Palestinians have tried diplomatic solutions in the past, but you can't force a nation with more hard power than yours to the negotiation table.
The inherent problem with your argument is it doesn't account for the disparity of both hard and soft power between the two belligerents.
Problem with yours is what I already pointed out. You applaud people for doing terrorism (aka killing themselves). You refuse their ability to not jump knowingly into a bear trap with their both legs.
Either they didn't try hard enough or they could find non-diplomatic solutions. Better ones than doing terrorism (aka killing themselves).
If you accept someone saying the only way out of their situation was doing terrorism (aka killing themselves) then you are not a smart human being.
This is the first time I've talked to you?
So you are blaming the the collective punishment on those receiving the collective punishment?
If Hamas killing women and children is wrong, is Israeli killing several times more not?
Kinda sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about..... It takes two willing parties to negotiate. And in these negotiations Israel has always had more power, thus more responsibility to make peace.
If you think labeling someone a terrorist changes the actual material conditions that causes this war..... Then you aren't a smart human being.
I blame people who did unnecessary stupid things that they knew would cause them to suffer even more. They are not smart. If they were smart they wouldn't do it that way.
It's wrong but they did not start this aggression without reason, and they know they are not suicidal.
Sigh. How else should I put it? Don't do diplomacy if you think you are smart (hamas clearly aren't) and already tried everything. Do terrorism. But please do it in a way that would actually benefit your cause. In a way that would not make them start another ground operation. I dunno, maybe try to not take hostages and not stream your murders for once? Or maybe release the hostages and surrender god damn it (it should even be possible to keep your lives by surrendering to a 3rd party instead). That would at least send a message to the world and maybe even save a lot of Palestinians.
I didn't do that here. They are just idiots.
A simple yes would suffice. So you think those thousands of women and children were part of the decision to attack Israel?
Ahh yes, because this conflict is devoid of any historical conflict..... Please look up how many Palestinian civilians have been killed by military actions vs Israeli in the last 20 years and come back to me.
Quite the shifting goal post you have there...... They're have already been several attempts by whatever is left over of Hamas to surrender/cease fire. Most Israelis already want a ceasefire, but Netanyahu has already said that the war will not end until all of Hamas is destroyed.
This is because Netanyahu's administration is way behind in the polls since the attack, because he moves defense forces away from vulnerable border points, allowing the attack to penetrate deep into Israel.
He is still under criminal investigation and very well may go to jail if he loses his next election. While the war goes on he has the ability to halt the vote from taking place due to emergency powers.
You've called them terrorists the whole time...
You're either playing the fool or are just foolish, either way I don't think we have much else to talk about. I don't like to associate myself with people who defend war crimes like collective punishment.
No, it's somewhat irrelevant. I'm not saying it's okay to bomb those people.
What do you expect exactly? That I would say "oh so Israel lost much less people in the October 7 attack than Palestinians in XX years, so it should just do nothing"? History doesn't matter when it's about specific decisions with predictable consequences, and the fact that those could be avoided in the first place. Don't cut the branch you are sitting on.
How difficult it is to release hostages and surrender? I think just one attempt would suffice. Is it difficult because some of them refuse to agree that this is the simplest and fastest way to try to save Palestinians and show everyone they can work on their mistakes?
My primary complain is their stupidity. They are people. They can learn. Maybe they will stop being terrorists if they do that, I can't know. But they surely aren't helping their fellow Palestinians as is.
You've already blamed them and called them all terrorists....
No, I would hope that you would apply the history of the region to gain greater context over the Oct 7th attack, it didn't occur in a vacuum.
Again, these people are in a giant concentration camp. It would be like blaming the Warsaw uprising for the destruction of the polish Jews.
Because Israel has already stated they won't negotiate for the hostage release, they don't want the hostages. They want a genocide. Have you not been reading the news about this subject like at all?
You are a fucking idiot. Hamas only had around 10-15k active members in their military, a significant number of those were killed on Oct 7th or in the following counter attacks.
The reason why the Israeli military has overwhelmingly killed primarily women and children is because Hamas is already destroyed. There are a few cells left in hiding, but the organization has no control over the Palestinian population.
You're nothing but a psuedo intellectual bigot tripping over clumsy arguments to support war criminals. Go kick rocks.
I did not call women and children that, you're lying or imagining things.
It wasn't effective and they knew it wouldn't be.
You can't escape or shut down a concentration camp like that. That's my point.
Funny. If that's true (and I know it isn't) then there is no use in keeping hostages anymore. Release them and let the world see how Israel doesn't want to stop even after that. Also stop wasting resources on them. Win-win.
Who keeps those hostages then?
No. What they are doing is war crimes and all criminals should be prosecuted. Israeli are much more likely to meet that simply because they are a part of a system that can take care of their citizens. And if not, I hope at least enough people will remember that for the sake of future generations (similar to how Americans remember what they did to Japan). On the other hand, hamas has no chance to get any such treatment (simply because they are not fans of proper justice-related systems) and it should be rightfully hated by all Palestinians for their actions and decisions. Unless hamas suddenly gets smarter and starts to care about Palestinians. That would surprise me, and in a positive way.