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Silicon Valley wants us to believe that their autonomous products are a kind of self-guided magic, but the technology is clearly not there yet. A quick peak behind the curtain has consistently revealed a product base that, at a minimum, is still deeply reliant on human workforces.

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[-] jettrscga@lemmy.world 111 points 3 weeks ago

This sounds exactly like Amazon's "Just walk out" grocery store concept that actually required remote supervising by workers in India.

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 39 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

We DO NOT want Indians remote driving cars in America holy shit.

[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

But they are self-driving. DON'T YOU DARE not appreciate that!

/s

[-] sit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 weeks ago
[-] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 18 points 3 weeks ago

Amazon stopped being able to deliver working products in 2016

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[-] Gullible@sh.itjust.works 87 points 3 weeks ago

Mechanical Turks are my favorite trope of the 2020s.

[-] ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com 48 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

The job post also notes that such a teleoperation center requires “building highly optimized low latency reliable data streaming over unreliable transports in the real world.” Tele-operators can be “transported” into the robotaxi via a “state-of-the-art VR rig,” it adds.

Oh man that's pretty hilarious for "autonomous vehicles"

Tesla would not be the first robotaxi company to use this method. In fact, it’s an industry standard. It was previously reported that Cruise, the robotaxi company owned by General Motors, was employing remote human assistants to troubleshoot when its vehicles ran into trouble

Oh, so this is actually completely normal and should not be news worthy...

[-] halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 32 points 3 weeks ago

Remote human intervention when automated systems fail should be expected and required to be honest with current technology. There are simply too many edge cases in the real world, even with the trillions of miles Tesla has trained their system on.

[-] TheFrogThatFlies@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

When will the intervention be called upon? How we react is defined by the context we have. Imagine being dropped into a pre accident situation without any context.

[-] halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

No idea, and I doubt they'll ever publicly say.

Direct human intervention is definitely something other companies could be doing more of. Waymo especially given all the videos of them getting stuck, sometimes en masse.

[-] errer@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago

I had heard through a friend who works at Waymo they currently have 1.5 engineers per car. Ideally, if you want a self-driving car company to be financially successful, that number should be significantly less than 1. These companies are heavily propped up by VC money and it’s not at all clear they’ll achieve that goal.

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[-] aesthelete@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

Remote human intervention when automated systems fail should be expected and required to be honest with current technology.

The "human in the loop" is one of those things that sounds good but isn't at all in reality.

https://pluralistic.net/2024/10/30/a-neck-in-a-noose/

A human was literally sitting at the wheel as Uber's taxi ran someone over.

Driving is nothing but edge cases, and that's why maybe paying drivers to drive people around is better than some half-baked AI driving people under trucks and hoping a call center employee is paying enough attention to bail them out.

[-] SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

It's normal in the industry but the industry likes to tell the public otherwise so from time to time these articles pop up.

Amazon's just walk out shop, with AI looking with cameras what you bought, was actually run by indians remotely because the automation didn't quite work. Food delivery robots are run by people in low cost areas. Over guy runs multiple robots with a pont-and-click interface. That kind of thing. I'm sure autonomy is worked on but it's not fully autonomous yet.

[-] Jrockwar@feddit.uk 5 points 3 weeks ago

Two notes on this as someone who works in the sector.

It's "completely normal", but only if you're not having a full time driver for each vehicle, which is what the article sounds like... Then the vehicles wouldn't be autonomous, they'd just be teleoperated.

And the second part, why is this an industry standard and why are investors ok with it? Imagine you have a product (robotaxi) that is autonomous but can't deal with absolutely everything on its own (not even Waymo is that advanced). The key component that you need to build into the system is the ability to come to a stop safely, and be recovered remotely. Then these "teleoperators" can recover the vehicles if/when they fail, and given a sufficiently low failure rate, you can have one operator for each X vehicles. Even if this is more than "0 drivers", having 1 driver per 10 vehicles is a massive cost saving. Plus zooming out and thinking of other things than robotaxis, there are sectors like mining where they don't care (that much) about the number of drivers - their primary goal is to have the drivers away from a dangerous mine. They can save money from simplifying operations that way.

[-] andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works 41 points 3 weeks ago

Musk is a little whiney bitch that can't hold his word. Full autonomous my ass. His words are all lies.

[-] makuus@pawb.social 18 points 3 weeks ago

What’s hilariously tragic is that he could very likely have his full self-driving if he would just shut his shit-spewing asshole of a mouth for a hot second, and spend some of his ungodly billions on the problem.

There are incredibly bright people out there who can make this stuff a reality. But, it takes paying them well, not shit-talking or overruling them, and giving them the environment for success—e.g., not taking away the radar from the cars.

He just wants to talk a big game without spending any real effort or money on the problem. And, it’s just sad, because he could have his FSD and look like a genius.

[-] andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works 15 points 3 weeks ago

The lidar drama is why Tesla without Musk could overtake global EV market, but they have him.

[-] makuus@pawb.social 8 points 3 weeks ago

It may well be a matter of opinion whether Tesla, even operating at its highest potential, could now overtake the likes of BYD, which is getting extensive help from its government. But, it’s reasonably clear that Tesla’s chances get thinner with every bad decision of Musk’s.

He fucked with the engineering, chasing pennies on critical components, like the lidar. He fucked with the crown jewel of the company—its Supercharger network—by destroying the team, and thereby slowing down rollouts and critical maintenance. He ran his mouth off and chased away folks—like me—who would have otherwise bought, by espousing pants-on-head-crazy crypto-bro viewpoints. Hell, his idea of PR is a poop emoji auto-responder.

It’s just frustrating to see such a great concept—the ubiquitous electric car—be fucked up so badly by the person with the most means to succeed.

[-] Doomsider@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

It is almost like he is not a genius and just has generational wealth.

I mean when was the last time "the person who knows the most about manufacturing in the world" spent all their free time doing drugs, posting on Twitter, and fucking his employees trying to pump out kid number thirteen.

There is a word for someone who fucks it all up but still is left holding the money. Conman, that is the word.

[-] Vlyn@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 weeks ago

Don't forget about spending thousands of hours in Diablo 4. And now he's eyeing up Path of Exile 2.

Hard working my ass, he spends more time on Twitter than I do at work.

[-] taladar@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 weeks ago

To be fair it is probably not on purpose. He is just too stupid to make realistic estimates of what will be possible.

[-] RedEyeFlightControl@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

We have this requirement called truth in advertising, but it doesn't seem to apply to billionaires.

[-] freddydunningkruger@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

It is on purpose. It started with his first POS company, Zip2, when he built a fake chassis to make their server look bigger and more powerful to investors.

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[-] cyrano@lemmy.dbzer0.com 37 points 3 weeks ago
[-] ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk 27 points 3 weeks ago

This always the solution to these big, over promised AI projects... "what if i just pay someone a pittance to do the hard part."

[-] dumbass@leminal.space 26 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It's been 7 hours of driving random people around the city, name after name I'll forget quick, then I see a name that brings my blood to a boil, an old bully/tormentor, I take over the car and deliver the script perfectly, he doesn't remember my voice, why would he? We head off and he zones out staring at his phone, completely oblivious to the fact he is heading towards his doom, we come to a train line and my internet connection 'drops', causing the vehicle to come to a complete stop, a minute later a large train smashes into a the car, completely destroying it and killing them before I can successfully reconnect to them.

And that's how to get away with murder.

[-] Kbobabob@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago

It seems you've thought this through. Did you get an interview yet?

[-] dumbass@leminal.space 12 points 3 weeks ago

Just waiting on my video interview.

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[-] Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 25 points 3 weeks ago

Remotely-driven robotaxis seem like the worst option available. I'm imagining a whole cubicle farm LARPing GTA5.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago

Fake it till you make enough investor money to hire remote humans

[-] meeeeetch@lemmy.world 21 points 3 weeks ago

What if your robot was just a guy?

[-] chemicalwonka@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 3 weeks ago

Space Karen is a fraud

[-] lemon@sh.itjust.works 17 points 3 weeks ago

Preferred prior experience: Midtown Madness (100+ hours), GTA (100+ hours), or comparative driving simulators.

[-] GrabtharsHammer@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago

Hey hey hey, it’s time to make crrrazy money! Are you ready?

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[-] mehdi_benadel@lemmy.balamb.fr 7 points 3 weeks ago

Experience on Carmaggedon is also a plus.

[-] JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

Hope their employee screeening is bulletproof. This was the first thing that popped into my head.

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[-] Doomsider@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago

Oh look, Crazy Taxi in real life!

[-] Cyber@feddit.uk 14 points 3 weeks ago

It's just like the indoor farm factory things, eventually everyone realises it's too expensive

Cost of car + remote driver infrastructure + remote driver (minimum) wage will be much higher than simpler car + local driver

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[-] skeezix@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

To take a job at Tesla is to be ok with getting shitcanned at any time for any reason

[-] Aermis@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago

So most like any job these days

[-] whyNotSquirrel@sh.itjust.works 8 points 3 weeks ago

I guess it's not for live driving? The ping of any connection can't be good enough for that?

[-] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Who cares about ping when there are profits to be made

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[-] dirthawker0@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago

Eh. There are driverless taxis working really well in some cities already. I felt very safe riding in a waymo. Tesla is way late to that party, who cares?

[-] JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyz 26 points 3 weeks ago

A Waymo looks like this. The Tesla robotaxi looks like this - see anything missing?
That's right, all the sensors and hardware required to make safe, functioning autonomous car.

As long as Tesla keeps listening to the fundamentally flawed idea of Musk that "Humans drive using only their eyes, therefore autonomous cars don't require anything except a camera", they are destined to fail, as that system can't prevent crashing into things if it doesn't understand what it is looking at.

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[-] HIMISOCOOL@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

So... Trains?

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this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2024
356 points (96.4% liked)

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