Ziz update thread, started 19 February : sneerclub

[–] YourNetworkIsHaunted@awful.systems 2 points 8 hours ago

Behind the Bastards just wrapped their four-part series on the Zizzians, which has been a fun trip. Nothing like seeing the live reactions of someone who hasn't been at least a little bit plugged into the whole space for years.

I haven't finished part 4, but so far I've deeply appreciated Robert's emphasis on how the Zizzian nonsense isn't that far outside the bounds of normal Rationalist nonsense, and the Rationalist movement itself has a long history as a kind of cult incubator, even if Yud himself hasn't fully leveraged his influence over a self-selecting high-control group.

Also the recurring reminders of the importance of touching grass and talking to people who haven't internet-poisoned themselves with the same things you have.

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

wait wait wait wait wait wait

aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation

it was just next to some single-cell protein things so i assumed they want to just pour a bunch of (glutar-)aldehyde on their food for preservation. wow i hope they have a spare liver, because it would be rough, but no, it's a cryopreservation method, like for tissue samples and so on

they wanted to diy a cryonics in their mobile trailer park with intermittent power from solar panels

[–] blakestacey@awful.systems 11 points 4 weeks ago

[–] dgerard@awful.systems 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

Wired: The Delirious, Violent, Impossible True Story of the Zizians (archive)

Evan Ratliff has apparently been tracking the Ziz cult since 2022 and when it blew up into mainstream news, he was ready

[–] blakestacey@awful.systems 12 points 3 weeks ago

The MIRI, CFAR, EA triumvirate promised not just that you could be the hero of your own story but that your heroism could be deployed in the service of saving humanity itself from certain destruction. Is it so surprising that this promise attracted people who were not prepared to be bit players in group housing dramas and abstract technical papers?

Good point.

Logic. Rationality. Intelligence. Somewhere in all these attempts to harness them for our shared humanity, they’d been warped and twisted to destroy it.

Oh, the warping and twisting started long before Ziz. (The Sequences are cult shit.)

[–] gnomicutterance@awful.systems 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I mean, sure,

Liches have trouble thinking clearly about paths through probability space that conflict with their phylactery, and the more conjunctive a mission it is to make true their phylactery, the more bits of epistemics will be corrupted by their refusal to look into that abyss.

could "could read like the work of an intelligent but unhinged mind", if you also think Gene Ray was "intelligent but unhinged", they both use big words in wrong ways.

Where the 2 major Time forces join, synergy creates 2 new minor Time points we recognize as Sunup and Sundown. The 4-equidistant time points can be considered as Time Square imprinted upon the circle of Earth [...] equated to a Higher Order of Life Time Cube.

[–] YourNetworkIsHaunted@awful.systems 4 points 3 weeks ago

Below a minimum level of hingedness the actual mental ability of the cult leader in question is irrelevant. On one hand it speaks to an ability to invent and operate incredibly complex frameworks and models of the world. On the other hand whatever intelligence they have isn't sufficient for them to realize (or be convincible) that they're fucking nutters.

This leads us into part 17 of my ongoing essay about how intelligence - as in "the raw mental resources supposedly measured by IQ or whatever other metrics" is useless and probably incoherent.

[–] blakestacey@awful.systems 10 points 3 weeks ago

LaSota and those in her orbit alleged that CFAR and its leadership were laced with anti-trans beliefs and practices. (“That's preposterous,” one member of the rationalist community, who is also trans, told me. “Rationalists have the most trans people of any group I've seen that isn't explicitly about being trans. You'd just show up at a math event or house party, and it would be 20 percent trans.”)

The leadership can't be transphobic because 20% of the membership is trans. In related news, the United States government cannot be sexist because [breaks down into bleak and bitter laughter]

[–] inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I’m a Vermonter and this shit is so insane. I wanna know what the people caught up in shooting the vermont border patrol agent were up to. What were they planning on doing in VT? Why were they armed to the teeth? Why did they have surgical equipment? What is the nature of their ties to Peter fucking Thiel?

I can’t quite comprehend what it is they even believe in. When I read that this cult had ties to Peter Thiel all my alarm bells in my head went off. He’s arguably one of the most powerful and dangerous men in America.

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Technically he doesn't have connections to Thiel directly. They have connections to the lesswrong Rationalists (note, rationalwiki is not associated with the lesswrong Rationalists, and they don't like each other, this place is also on team rationalwiki). However enough Rationalists are (or are friends with) neoreactionaries (for a long time LW was one of the few places where they were sometimes welcome, or even talked about). But this is one of the places where (through heavy layers of snark and derision) you could learn about these groups.

However, as the lore is deep, very annoying, quite bad (A lot of IQ-anon type people), I suggest you don't start reading up on this. Ignorance once lost cannot be regained (There are also some very small (small as on low risk, but if you are one of the rare people high effect) mental health risks if you believe very specific things about skynet style AI and a few other silly beliefs). And you already got the important parts (Thiel and people close to him suck).

[–] froztbyte@awful.systems 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

Technically he doesn’t have connections to Thiel directly.

minor nit: known connections. while "thielbucks laundered through 17 cutouts get used to fund useful idiots for stochastic terrorism to whip up an anti-trans panic" is a hypothetical I just pulled out of my ass for demonstration, it's also too fucking plausible in the current state of affairs

I have no idea how likely that scenario is, and just to be clear I'm not saying that anything like it did happen. more pointing towards thielbucks are in so of the bad places doing harm atm, that sort of thing. so much so that I'd be hesitant to concretely exclude anyone/anything from that without some data to back it up

[–] swlabr@awful.systems 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

thielbucks laundered through 17 cutouts get used to fund useful idiots for stochastic terrorism to whip up an anti-trans panic

While this didn’t happen to the letter, thielthoughts stochastically brought about Luigi, and we have the thielsweat to show for it

[–] froztbyte@awful.systems 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

[wailing intensifies]

[–] swlabr@awful.systems 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Thiel sustains himself on wailing, sorry

[–] istewart@awful.systems 7 points 1 month ago

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jizz-wailer/Legends

Peter moonlights on the weekends

[–] froztbyte@awful.systems 5 points 1 month ago

even this he has to ruin

[–] inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 month ago

fund useful idiots for stochastic terrorism to whip up an anti-trans panic

In 2025 this is completely believable.

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 6 points 1 month ago

No very good point, no known direct connections. Esp with Moldy sliding into peoples dms.

[–] inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 month ago (3 children)

I think I lost some brain cells reading those links and I couldn’t even fully read them without closing the tab out of irritation lol.

What the actual fuck do these people believe????

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

They believe in race and IQ, that people who code javascript blog a lot (no a lot) are superior (and should have all the money and power), and that the time of democracy is over. (and that some people should be reduced to biodiesel). They don't believe the world has gotten less violent, they believe in corporal punishment, leather jackets make you look cool no matter the situation, etc etc.

Ow and that you can build Skynet using Turing machines.

This is not to be confused with what the zizians believe, they believe a bespoke set of other wild things. But I have never really looked much into them.

[–] aio@awful.systems 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

The Zizians believe in IQ, that animals are ethically equivalent to humans, that all people contain exactly two personality cores corresponding to the two hemispheres of their brains, that every personality core is either intrinsically good or intrinsically evil and less than 5% are good. They believe in violence as a form of mutually assured destruction: you should always escalate every conflict to the maximum in order to dissuade hypothetical agents from blackmailing you. And the stuff about Skynet.

I think to understand properly it should be recognized that while the personality-core stuff is out of left field, all of the other beliefs are pretty much just logical conclusions of mainstream rationalist thought. For instance Yudkowsky has to repeatedly explain that he's not in favor of violence (except when he's advocating for bombing data centers) precisely because it's really easy to reach that conclusion from what he's written. The Zizians mainly differ by reaching that logical conclusion and being willing to act on it.

[–] Architeuthis@awful.systems 14 points 1 month ago (1 children)

in order to dissuade hypothetical agents from blackmailing you

There's also a whole thing with Yud accepting the many worlds interpretation as obvious truth that leads to (some) rationalists believing that getting killed in one timeline helps your surviving parallel selves by bolstering your case of being unblackmailable by said hypothetical agents, who are also from the future, which is why you can't negotiate with them directly.

[–] froztbyte@awful.systems 11 points 1 month ago

I was not aware of this, failed my constitution roll, and have taken psychic damage

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 8 points 1 month ago (2 children)

you should always escalate every conflict to the maximum in order to dissuade hypothetical agents from blackmailing you.

Ah not understanding the escalation ladder (or knowing it exists, and just going all in every time because they don't get it) a common issue, slightly more common among younger nerds it seems (Made worse by Enders Game), but also fascists (somebody shared a story on bsky where they had violently (fists etc) gotten rid of some fascists at an event, who later returned to do a drive by shooting).

[–] Architeuthis@awful.systems 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Also "return the offense thousandfold" figures in LaVeyan satanism I think (cross referencing unsuccessful; too many black metal bands in search results) as a counterpoint to by far the least observed christian guideline of turn-the-other-cheek.

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 5 points 1 month ago

LaVeyan satanism

As I said. Nerds.

black metal bands

Again. (Love that there seem to be two kinds of Black Metal bands (well three kinds, but the popular ones are posers and not trve nor kvlt, except for their first album), the ones very proud they are basing their songs on lord of the rings, and the other kind you know the one)

[–] Amoeba_Girl@awful.systems 7 points 4 weeks ago

Enders Game

you mean HPMOR of course

It's really funny how HPMOR inherits the exact same problems from Ender's Game like there was nothing at all to learn. Harry and Ender's violence is recognised as maladaptive, a result of trauma, they might end the world or do a big genocide, but that's because they're so much smarter and more competent than anyone around them! They can keep their evil half (!!!) in check with the power of their big ethical brain (the good hemisphere????).

[–] mountainriver@awful.systems 5 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

all people contain exactly two personality cores corresponding to the two hemispheres of their brains, that every personality core is either intrinsically good or intrinsically evil and less than 5% are good

If you have one of each, does that make you neutral? Now how is the Lawful-Chaotic alignment constructed? Does it reside in the kidneys?

I want to roll up a Chaotic Neutral Rogue Halfling.

[–] AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space 5 points 4 weeks ago

You may have to settle for Sanguine Evil or Phlegmatic Good.

[–] inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

leather jackets make you look cool no matter the situation

Finally something me and the crazies can agree upon, at least until it’s too warm out.

Curtis yarvin and his support by the worlds most powerful people is terrifying.

Back when I was in high school (graduated 2007) was the start of the push for a focus on STEM and a defunding of the humanities. Way back then I warned it would lead to perfect little tech drones capable of aiding those who want to destroy the world but incapable of having any understanding as to why or of history itself. They defunded art because art is one of the most unbiased forms of learning history. A picture is worth a thousand words, yada yada.

I fucking hate being a Cassandra. Fucking hate it.

[–] Soyweiser@awful.systems 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Finally something me and the crazies can agree upon, at least until it’s too warm out.

at least until it’s too warm out.

So you don't agree. Musk wears that thing everywhere (yes yes, not literally everywhere, but a lot. Also he seems to have several) that thing must have a horrible ... smell.

[–] Evinceo@awful.systems 11 points 4 weeks ago

What the actual fuck do these people believe???

If I had to summarize it, they believe in scifi handwaves and have taken them far beyond mere logical conclusions.

[–] froztbyte@awful.systems 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

hi, welcome to awful.systems and sneerclub! I see you've received your intro package!

but, yeah, common reaction. it'd be funnier if their ideas weren't presently so fucking influential in all the wrong places. :|

[–] inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I’m trying to figure out if this cult is mostly aligned with Peter thiels nonsense or not. I’m still lost.

Or are these trans ladies and fellow cultists fighting against them?

The fact I can’t figure who is on what ideological team is uh… worrisome. I’m usually pretty good at that?

[–] froztbyte@awful.systems 8 points 1 month ago (2 children)

it's ..... hairy

this is a prior attempt by me at giving a (very) concise overview of the "main camp" (for lack of a better term). the zizians are a distinct, specific, extremist offshoot of these.

and I want to make clear that "extremist" there is really, really intense. because 'ole Yud himself has advocated nuking datacenters to "stop the AI"

thiel's linked in by......many strands. it's pretty accurate to say that many aren't known, and only some are. some things that are: these ideas are extremely popular with a lot of the kind of people who work at thiel-funded/thiel-connected companies (palantir, etc etc). there's also a strong link/correlation between the sort of shit that both thiel/yarvin say, and many of these

don't feel bad for not getting it from the getgo, nor should you feel bad about not wanting to dive in. much of their shit spans 2~3 decades (even longer when you account for the extropians and longtermists and shit...), so there's a lot

[–] inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I mean if these people are even more extreme than “let’s turn the poors into biodiesel” … what the actual fuck.

I’m suspicious of AI… I think it can help in science research and medicine for novel solutions to difficult problems but should never be used by everyday people or by companies just trying to profit for the sake of profit, which is most companies under capitalism.

The people who quote chat gpt (and it’s competitors) answers in comments are people I wouldn’t mind turning into biodiesel. Ok not really but if they can’t/are too lazy to use their brain for basic shit what does that say about our society? Why are we outsourcing our ability to think and reason to a fucking overhyped algorithm????

Anyway. About to read your link and hopefully (no offense to you!) not lose any more brain cells than I have already trying to figure these weirdos out.

[–] froztbyte@awful.systems 7 points 1 month ago

the sidebar has a link (the TESCREAL one) which may also be illuminating

as to the rest, yuuuuuup. that's why sneerclub and techtakes exist.

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

one other visible strand: thiel has kinda sorta grant program where he pays people to not to got to university and instead do anything else. this way he funded a couple of people from extended rationalist universe and some cryptobros

e: oh well

In early February 2025, Elon Musk used several Thiel Fellows in an attempt to take over operations of the Department of the Treasury through the Trump Administration's Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE).[9]

[–] jonhendry@iosdev.space 6 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

@skillissuer @sneerclub

"Here, I’ll fund some smart people to isolate them among like-minded fringe thinkers rather than mixing with a healthy normal range of opinions.”

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 4 weeks ago

if only

there's a bunch of people, some of which made technodystopian bullshit (like cryptobros or later ai) or went all in in bubbles (thiel fellowship is diverse in their hype, vr, tissue grown meat, cryonics, anti-aging drivel, pick your poison) which embedded them in sv financial circles, and all of them rub shoulders with, and have debts to, peter thiel (some literal, some in terms of favours)

and also they're isolated from normal academia and instead believe all that monumental extended rationalist universe horseshit. this also means that they never learned critical thinking in proper university but instead dwelt on forums dedicated to extremely verbose and badly written harry potter fanfic. all of that for a small price of 100k per head

make of that what you will

[–] jonhendry@iosdev.space 4 points 4 weeks ago

@skillissuer @sneerclub

It's like a reverse cult. All the isolation, but they pay *you*.

[–] dgerard@awful.systems 5 points 1 month ago

just started a Ziz thread over on the Reddit sneerclub too

[–] saucerwizard@awful.systems 4 points 2 weeks ago

https://www.theguardian.com/global/ng-interactive/2025/mar/05/zizians-artificial-intelligence

[–] dgerard@awful.systems 4 points 4 weeks ago

BBC summary of the story of Ziz

[–] dgerard@awful.systems 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Ziz appears in court for bail hearing

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

if ziz is not a flight risk, then idk who is

in true rrrrationalist fashion, they would just let her free if she explained everything (just like sbf):

LaSota ended the hearing frustrated with her ability to effectively communicate her message.

“I shouldn’t, um …” LaSota said, taking a long pause. “I wish I could be more eloquent, maybe I could if the circumstances were better.”

SneerClub