Could publicly-owned grocery stores break Canada’s grocery oligopoly? : canada

[–] e839f72a@lemmynsfw.com 44 points 2 months ago (1 children)

But i heard the communist countries have fake grocery stores with plastic fruits just for show!!!

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

We cut out the middleman and put the plastic directly in the food.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 29 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I don't see what the backlash is about. A publicly owned store is no different from Costco, except everybody's a member and there are no owners raking off prof-... ohhhhh, now I get it.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Of course it will work. But it has to also do a publicly-owned distribution centre/network. Loblaw now owns a significant part the distribution side and independent grocers end up buying from Loblaw. This is a great hack that lets Loblaw say their retail margins aren't that high, while making money before the products even enter the retail side. And of course it allows them to make money from smaller competitors.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 17 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Are Co-ops not already a thing? How is this different?

[–] ComradeRachel@lemmy.blahaj.zone 37 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Co Ops are owned by the employees or customers/members depending on how they are setup. The article was implying it being owned by the local government like utilities and roads are.

[–] twopi@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 months ago

The article shouldn't be implying. It's part of his platform.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 6 points 2 months ago

State owned and employee owned are very different, though both are better than the corporate system we have now. Both have advantages and disadvantages though. State owned ideally operates solely for the benefit of the public, though the government has to not be corruptable. Employee owned answers to employees, so it operates in their best interest, which is often to customers best interest too. They aren't run purely to generate a profit for shareholders. They're generally operated to be stable and provide good jobs for a long time, and not exploit employees obviously.

[–] HertzDentalBar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 2 months ago

Nationalized Loblaws simple as that

[–] roguetrick@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Part of the problem as you get more rural is the distribution centers end up being co-ops between established players(more of a US thing, see associated grocers who were a co-op that won't allow new players to join as competition) or straight monopolies for very large swaths. You'd need to recreate that whole system, not just the stores themselves. That or break them up.

[–] Cerothen@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 months ago

We could take steps to expand an already National and will developed logistics service that is currently in need of new expanded revenue in order to establish supply chains to more places and quicker.

Canada Post could pivot from just being mail and some parcels to also transporting groceries to local public supermarkets.

But really prices were low when there were more Crown Corps and less mega corps. Lots of people refuse to appreciate that fact though.

[–] Scott_of_the_Arctic@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

We need that in Norway.

[–] AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

God yes. The grocery selection here is horrible.

[–] Scott_of_the_Arctic@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

That and the coordinated price fixing by the supermarket chains and the supply monopolies (Bama, asko etc)

[–] LiveLoveLaff@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I’m curious. Can I made a bunch of bread, sit just off NoFrills property, and gift a loaf to everyone who agrees not to buy bread from the store.

[–] OutlierBlue@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Technically yes, but I'm sure the cops would show up and charge you with mischief or something. Remember, the cops are here to protect the status quo, not to protect you.

[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

They're here to advance the interests of the state. Which is usually the status quo, but when it's suddenly not, shit happens.

[–] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 months ago

The penalty for illegal price fixing food like Weston's Bread, should be nationalization into the public fold.

The Weston Bakery Empire and Galen's yacht aptly named "Bread" should be public property.

[–] HertzDentalBar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 months ago

I think if you got the right license to be an artisan producer you would be fine, might need a permit to setup a tent or something.

[–] Paige@piefed.ca 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Terrible solution.
Break up and split the wholesale and retail operations. Legislate against wholesale pricing discrimination (Wholesale pricing cannot have price breaks which exclude smaller competitors)

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Why "terrible"? You got something against crown corporations?

[–] Paige@piefed.ca 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I don’t have a universal like or dislike of publicly owned companies. Expending limited resources and political capital on running a supermarket before trying any antitrust regulation is a waste of governmental resources.

[–] HertzDentalBar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 2 months ago

Fuck Weston nationalize Loblaws. Boom running a supermarket made easy.

[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It's a solution that can be implemented by powerless people on their own. I agree that the state has better means at its disposal, but they're not going to help any time soon.

[–] melsaskca@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 months ago

I hope so. I'm all in. Let's get the people at the lower end of the economic scale to now have a choice to eat healthy instead of no choice at all. Right now they can only afford all the processed stuff that'll eventually kill you because it is dirt cheap.

[+] puppinstuff@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Canada post doesn't have a lot of their own locations any more. The majority are contracted locations within other stores.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 months ago

Mostly Loblaw's (Shopper's Drugmart) in Ontario. And apparently the employees work for Galen too so they're paid accordingly.

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

We have a Co-op with multiple stores in Central Alberta, nothing ever seems cheaper than at other stores. Everyone just goes to Costco for the major grocery trip, Coop just gets business for one-offs and people with mobility issues.

[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

We have co-op in Manitoba as well, and their prices seem close-ish to Sobeys and Safeway. Or at least close enough that it's not worth travelling further to get to those other stores. (Couldn't tell you about superstore or Walmart, I refuse to give money to those assholes).

We do a Costco haul every 4-6 weeks, and also go to the co-op at least once a week. Mostly for perishables, and whatever deals they have in their weekly flyer. And for their very good selection of local/Canadian items.

[–] MITM0@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago

Ummm yes

[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Switzerland, not Canada here but; Migros is a "Genossenschaft" (basically that, owned by the people) and forms a country-wide duopoly with Coop, so there's that.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

food, housing, transport is the three things that the government should take care of

though food is more complex than housing and transport because there's more things to take care of, more members involved and more things to plan out carefully

[–] rozodru@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

I live in Toronto, I just do all my grocery shopping in Chinatown on Spadina and the surrounding area. so much cheaper, like insanely cheaper and better stuff too.

[–] Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Well as someone that has been doing a good chunk of grocery shopping at Giant Tiger, I say that this is a great idea.

[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 months ago

And in the past months, I've found some Canadian produce at Giant Tiger when nobody else in the area had it. Specifically carrots.

[–] Washedupcynic@lemmy.ca -2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

We have those in America already, they are called co-ops. This is the one in my area: https://www.honestweight.coop/ and https://www.niskayunaco-op.com/ . Mamdani's proposal isn't bold, it's already been done, and there is no reason why they can't be implemented in NYC.

[–] Revan343@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 months ago

This isn't about co-ops

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

they are called coops

No they are not.

Of course coops exist in Canada but it’s not the same thing

[+] wampus@lemmy.ca -10 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Given how our government seems to (dys)function, I'm doubtful that this would realistically solve anything. Government shops, with much higher employee salaries getting paid by taxes without any real public say in the matter, with another bloated set of "c-level" employees earning even more ridiculous amounts. We'd likely also see the municipal level people cashing in to top up their salaries by another couple $100k at least, to sit on a "regional grocery board", sorta like what they did in metro Vancouver. "You want me to participate in meetings related to my job?!?! I'm gonna need more money!!".

Public sector employment skyrocketed under Trudeau, to something like 1 in 5 working people in Canada being employed by the govt. The increases in wages for public sector employees was the primary driver of stats that said wages had gone up for Canadians post covid -- which is extra funny, because public sector wages are paid via taxes, meaning private sector peoples wages generally stagnated, and their tax payments started providing less bang for the buck. And it's often 'shielded' in the media -- like BC Transit says stuff like they need more gov funding due to "Inflationary pressures", but in reality its "because the public sector employee union negotiated larger YoY increases than is seen in private sector, so our budgets are all blown and we need more of that tax revenue". You can see the compensation in their financial reports - over 80% of their HR budget is eaten up by staff earning more than the median salary in Canada (the median basically being their 'entry level' salary). It's difficult to rationalize why driving a bus warrants a salary in the top 10-25% of the country. For low skill work in private sector, there's basically a salary cap, and if staff want to go above it they need to change jobs / take on more responsibility -- the business can replace the staff member with a more junior person, earning a more junior salary. It's how you tend to need to manage your operating expenses. In public, that's not the case as you can just keep going back to the public troth demanding more of that tax revenue.

I mean, hell, look at what's going on in fauquier-strickland. A community with less than 500 people, and an operating budget deficit of 2.5 million?! That municipality is serving fewer people than my highschool graduating class from decades ago, yet they have an annual operating deficit of over 2.5 million.... and it's a fairly common situation for a lot of these smaller communities. And they've opted to go to the province for money, rather than increase taxes locally by ~$5k per resident to cover it. So everyone gets to share in the joy of inefficiency. The bloat's absurd.

So we'd get unsustainable grocery stores staffed by people earning six figures to do entry level shit, increased tax burden and decreased gov services in other places to compensate.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Wages have to rise for the market economy with positive baseline inflation level to not collapse. You want others' wages to also go up, not public employees' wages to not go up. Someone else's wage going up creates negotiating leverage for the rest to demand higher wage too. Most wages have little to do with skill or job difficulty and a lot to do with specific market conditions and leverages that people or firms use to drive wages up or down. And while you talk about certain public employees getting raises, you don't consider the wage freezes for tens of thousands of nurses in Ontario that lasted many, many years and were only removed after a long legal fight. So things aren't always good in the public sector and in fact there are more than a few jobs that are better paid in the private sector.

Public corporations are no different than private corporations in that they take money from people and they pay people to do work. Sure they take more of their income from taxes than Loblaw or TD, but that's not fundamentally different than the subscriptions, commissions and prices you pay for things you generaly can't afford not to pay. Of course most large private corporations also get paid from taxes in some part. But that's not the interesting bit. People lower than the very top of the income scale spend most of their wages in their local economy. That's the income of most local busenesses and the wages of their neighbours. Money collected from the profit margin of Loblaw disappears from the local economy of the store and it gets distributed to few at the very top of the income scale who own Loblaw. It disappears from the local economy geographically and functionally. It is not available to fund any other local business and labour. Of course thats even worse with Walmart where the money doesn't even stay in Canada. With this framework in mind, even if the prices of a public grocer are the same as Loblaw, the revenue would be flowing through higher wages of employees into the local buisness owners and their employees. This is why the two are not the same and why you might want a well paying public grocer over a Loblaw's.

Finally, at least in Ontario, the public LCBO stores are some of the best run retail stores and they're a joy to be in. Interacting with their staff is typically great.

Canada

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