this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2025
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/46305684

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[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Mostly yes but these claims that "we isn't even HAVE to work!" is just so brain rotting stupid

Yes, we do have to work. Yes, all of us that can and are able to. Yes, we probably could work less, like 20-30 hours a week, we might be able to get away with that but less than that?

Who is going to stock the shelves at super markets? How do you think your food arrives at supermarkets to begin with? How do you think that food is grown? Who will take care of your broken bones?

We all have jobs and yes, it is still very much a necessity. Maybe in some future we will enslave actually sentient AI to do all our mind killing work for us but until that day, we're on our own

But yeah, fuck the extremely rich that control the world

[–] Dozzi92@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

First off, fuck the rich.

Second, I think we could have a society where people don't work. I'd work. I kinda like having some shit to do. And I'm not alone. There's some people who like working a lot more than I do. And there's some people who don't like working at all. I think it's doable. I obviously agree that we need to work though. Some people do. I just don't know that we all need to.

That was my idea of what AI and robots were supposed to do, replace mindless bullshit jobs, let people do their thing. It just needs to come with some UBI.

[–] Ryanmiller70@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago

This has been my mindset when it comes to cutting out the need for work. I know tons of people that love to work either cause they love what they do and find it fulfilling or would be driven insane from not working and wouldn't know what to do without it. I also know lots of other people who can't stand working and won't find any form of work enjoyable or fulfilling and only do it cause they're forced to at the threat of homelessness and starvation. Give people UBI and those that don't want to work some lower quality housing (not something falling apart, but like a studio or 1 bedroom apartment) and some basic food and drinking water (not talking the finest dining, but the minimum to still get all the necessities to live with extras being given to those with medical needs verified by a doctor that require a little more).

[–] pupbiru@aussie.zone 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

also, anyone that’s consulted (like real consulting: not bullshit “management” consulting: actually building, but with a mandate and permission to actually change shit and get things done) knows that human systems are not perfectly efficient either

just like no machine is perfectly efficient (they all lose energy to tolerance, error, wear, slop, friction, heat, etc), human organisations lose efficiency in both materials and human effort for similar reasons: liquid capital must be available to deal with emergencies (eg paying people during a global pandemic), warehouses must have stock, humans must check to ensure other humans haven’t made mistakes or acted with malice

just because theoretically humanity produces more than enough money, food, hygiene supplies, etc to feed the US population (~>300m) 20x over doesn’t mean all of those supplies would be enough to feed, clothe, and sanitise the world (~>8b)

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If you could alter human nature so that everybody trusted everybody else, and everybody cooperated with everyone else, then people could work significantly less.

In that scenario you wouldn't need police, courts, food inspectors, restaurant inspectors, auditors, or a military because everyone would just be cooperating and honest. Offices would need far fewer managers because managers would just be coordinating work, and never have to worry about employees slacking off. HR would never have to fire anybody or discipline them because everyone would be trustworthy. You'd need far fewer executives, and the executives would be honest about how little they worked, and wouldn't ask for absurd compensation.

But, that isn't humanity. Throughout history people solving disputes non-violently has been extremely rare. It's possible among small isolated groups who all know each-other, but as soon as you get towns, people are no longer able to completely trust the people they encounter day to day.

People are also underestimating how good we in the developed world have it today. Working only 40 hours a week was something only the privileged few used to be able to do. Being able to choose what you want to eat is something that only the nobility used to do. Could it be better? Sure. Has it gotten worse on the small time scale of decades? Maybe for some groups. But, for most of the world the last few decades have been ones where the standard of living has gone up by leaps and bounds.

Yes, we should guillotine all the rich, but look at the immediate aftermath of the French Revolution to see how a fully justified plan can still cause death, starvation and chaos in the short term. Humans are still animals, and although we can sometimes recognize there's a problem, cleanly transitioning to a better system without chaos and death is not something we've figured out how to do.

[–] porksnort@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We do not need to change human nature. We need to figure out more effective ways of countering the relentless skullduggery of rich shitheads.

You are repeating a lazy old trope that encourages inaction and creates the current situation. Human nature is just fine. We all have good parts and bad parts in our nature. Society is defined by how it encourages the better parts and how it manages the worst parts.

We need to figure out how to counter the age old practice of entrenched rich interests using shitty underhanded tactics to undermine effective efforts for marginalized and poverty stricken people to organize and help themselves.

If you look at the history of movements that attempt to build mutual aid networks and actually provide for themselves, you will also find wealthy individuals sowing seeds of destruction. Media and whisper campaigns, using entrenched political advantages, intimidation, and outright assassination are all commonly used methods.

The reason the Black Panthers were so frightening to the powers that be was not because of the armed members that were the only ones shown on TV. The media was careful to avoid mentioning that BP were also working with community groups to provide breakfast programs for school age kids and other community support programs.

The Black Panthers were frightening to the powers that be because they were forming an actual ad hoc government that was intended to meet the needs of the local people the official government would not. This same pattern has been repeated in every situation in recorded history where a marginalized group organized themselves and became a threat through their unity and coordination.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We do not need to change human nature. We need to figure out more effective ways of countering the relentless skullduggery of rich shitheads.

Who are... not human? Or is that just their human nature coming out?

You are repeating a lazy old trope that encourages inaction and creates the current situation.

No, I'm stating the truth. You're wasting time trying to pretend that human nature isn't what it is.

We need to figure out how to counter the age old practice of entrenched rich interests

Keep trying to figure it out. I wish you luck. But, the truth is, it's not going to get much better than this. For 10,000 years of humanity as soon as there have been enough people in one place, there have been hierarchies, and typically the ones at the top have been much richer and much more brutal than what we have now. Often there are well-intentioned people who try to overthrow an old system that they think is unfair, and end up in one that's even worse. You might depose one authoritarian government and end up with one that's actually even worse.

Look at the results of the Arab Spring. Things got much worse in Syria, Yemen, Egypt, Lybia, Bahrain. It's only really Tunisia where things got better.

As for the Black Panthers, what lasting progress can you credit them with?

[–] porksnort@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I credit them with the fact we are talking about them.

You have given up before even trying.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago

We also talk about the Confederacy.

I'm not giving up, I'm just acknowledging that it's not a simple matter.

[–] heavy@sh.itjust.works 61 points 2 days ago (5 children)

Still hate that we think we don't work enough. There's so much automation anymore, why are we always pressured to feel like we're behind?

Give me 4 - 8s brother, I'm tired.

[–] WanderingThoughts@europe.pub 14 points 1 day ago (2 children)

why are we always pressured to feel like we’re behind

One reason is because of old Christian morale. You're born in sin and have to work and obey to repent for that sin, idle hands are the devil's workshop, that kind of stuff. Of course this kind of mentality got co-opted by industrial society to the point that work forms somebody's entire status in society and obligation to the nation. Industry then does what it does best and mercilessly exploits this.

A second reason is because the entire monetary system and economy is built on growth. There always needs to be more goods, more services, more consumption. And if the population isn't growing enough, then the people have to be made to buy more.

What brings us to advertisements, pushing to spend more, to compare yourself with the neighbors, always evaluating the status you're projecting.

[–] pyre@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

nah it's capitalism. endless growth requires every advancement to be the bare minimum.

oh the best we've ever produced was 40 units in a year but this year we managed to produce 60 units? well next year we gotta produce at least 90 units or we will have slowed down.

no, the profit we made from the extra 20 won't be reflected on your paycheck because the shareholders and/or your boss would literally go hungry if they don't horde all of it.

[–] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 day ago

Hands that burn down churches are not idle at all.

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 23 points 2 days ago (2 children)
[–] Mozingo@lemmy.world 20 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I just want the choice. You work 2-4s, they work 4-8s, I want to work 5-5s.

I wonder if instead of retirement age we could just do the gradual reduction of hours. I know I’m at the 5-6s age, but feel like I’m on the cusp of 4-6s. The thing is, my knowledge is more valuable than my labor anymore.

Just today my company tried to move forward on a 200k decision — everyone on board. I came in at 10am. I took an hour to really think through the problem they were trying to solve and came up with a different course of action. I brought it to my boss, forcing them to think about it in a different way. By about 3pm, it had made its way through the C Suite and the original deal was cancelled. They will still spend 200k, but now it will be on the right solution, and they won’t spend another 300k fixing their mistake. I left at 3pm.

I don’t need to be there 40 hours/week to get my job done.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I want to work 5-5s

Ia that 0 hour shifts, 12 hour shifts, or 24 hour shifts? 🤔

I think they meant five 5-hour shifts per week.

[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I don't think we can maintain our standard of living and cut down that much. I think 32 hours is definitely doable, and a huge QoL improvement.

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Robots literally stacking boxes in warehouses. Everything is possible already, except getting humans to actually want good for others. We want to build an eternal hell on Earth, devoid of any mercy.

[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

There are a lot of people to bring up from much worse shape.

It's possible we could get down to 24-27 hours a week while maintaining our current standard of living and bringing those people up. Some day.

I don't think 16 hours is reasonable. And I think 32 is a more reasonable short/medium term goal.

We absolutely have an obscene amount of wealth the spread, but it spreads really fast. Walmart made 15.5 billion in profit last year. They have 1.6 million employees in the US. If you take 100% of those profits and divide, that comes out to $9500 per employee. Average Walmart employee makes about $36,000 per year. So after some very rough napkin math, the average employee generates an additional 25% of their salary as profit. If you reduce their productivity by 50%, they're no longer profitable. If they're not longer profitable, they're no longer sustaining themselves at the current rate even if the owners take no profits.

We do have a lot of room to make things better. But we still need people to work. We still need people to deal with ~80% of the crap they deal with now. But that 20% still makes a difference, and we should be working towards that instead of away from it.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

The problem is consumables. This photo appears to be an oil worker.

The US burns something on the order of 20 million barrels of oil a day(!)

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=33&t=6

Up from 19 million not too long ago. 100 million in a work week. 5.2 billion a year.

Someone needs to be out there producing it. Yeah, it would be great if we could wean ourselves off of it, but then we'd still need people producing and managing whatever replaces it.

[–] bollybing@lemmynsfw.com 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Bicycles. Very little oil required.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago

Oil is used in a lot more than just transportation.

[–] pupbiru@aussie.zone -1 points 1 day ago

there being enough food to feed the world probably doesn’t mean you work less: people outside the imperial core often work far more for far less… if we even out those scales, i reckon we’d probably end up working more; not less!

yeah billionaires are a thing, but distribute the top 10 billionaires’ wealth across the US population and that’s still only about $1000 each… the top 20 to the world and everyone still only gets about $100USD

I do not want 14 hour shifts starting at 4. 9 - 5s are bad enough.

[–] 4grams@awful.systems 5 points 1 day ago

According to modern finance guys, they slaved their whole lives, multiple generations did, to ensure maximal shareholder value.

[–] Deceptichum@quokk.au 22 points 2 days ago (3 children)

It could be easy, but people make it hard by supporting the status quo.

We will never get change as long as enough people are comfortable and don’t want to risk losing anything.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago

The rich and powerful are supported by the status quo, and they'll resist any attempt to change it. Because they're rich and powerful, if they think it's necessary they'll resist that change with violence.

That's why things only tend to change when people are really, really "uncomfortable". If you're comfortable, then the injury and death you risk by attempting to change things isn't worth it. If people are already dying from starvation or disease, then it becomes worth it to risk death by challenging the status quo.

[–] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Nothing will change until people are hungry.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It could be easy, but people make it hard by ~~supporting~~ enforcing the status quo

Fixed it for you. Shaming the gaslighted masses won't stop the ones with the actual power from oppressing and otherwise abusing the rest of society.

It's not like any of the people in charge ever got a majority of a 100% participation vote. They've been systematically standing in the way of majority rule for centuries and pretending that everyone knows that for a fact and likes it just keeps us squabbling between ourselves while the root causes for most of the world's biggest problems only worsen.

[–] Deceptichum@quokk.au -1 points 1 day ago

The masses are the only ones who can be shamed into acting, not the oppressors. The issue stems from them not executing their power.

[–] kameecoding@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Be the change you want to see in the world, embrace minimalism, don't buy shit you don't need, let the capitalists cry that their sales have slumped and if you want, work less hours and adjust your living standards, that's what you can do.

Also vote for people who will bring more equality into society and tax the rich to better distribute wealth.

But the endless crying about working less hours online is the exact weapon the right wing cunts will use to call you lazy and entitled, because that's how it comes off, bread doesn't just appear in the grocery store.

But maybe I am just too European for this as I don't work 60-80 hours like some americans and I get more than 2 months worth of paid time off and I have paid sick leave.

P.s. fuck fast fashion, they are destroying the planet

[–] Ryanmiller70@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Problem with voting for the people that support this on a national scale is you'd have to get past the ingrained mindset people in America have of a third party never winning. O can guarantee you no Democrat will have support this and even if the someone wanted to pull a Bernie and just run as a Dem, but actually be a small bit more left than the corporate Dems, they'd fail hard cause the DNC doesn't want to actually do anything.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago

you'd have to get past the ingrained mindset people in America have of a third party never winning

It's not just a mindset, Game Theory shows that when you have First Past The Post voting and a 2-party duopoly, a third party just siphons votes from the establishment party that is closest to their platform. That results in the other major party effectively gaining votes.

Getting rid of FPTP would fix this. But, FPTP is what guarantees a D or an R will win. The only way to change the voting system is to have the lawmakers change it, but the lawmakers are the Ds and Rs that FPTP guarantees will win. So, they'd have to vote for a system that will cause them to lose elections.

There may be individual lawmakers who are honest and would want a better electoral system. But, they'd have to go up against their entire party apparatus which exists to block anything that is bad for the party.

[–] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 day ago

We could have been anything. We chose to be complete douchebags.

[–] minorkeys@lemmy.world -2 points 1 day ago

They worked hard and broke their backs to create this world but we've failed to work hard and break our backs to retain control of it.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

There’s a “simple living” subreddit which is largely about finding your own personal way to grab this “easy life” even if the whole world isn’t doing so. The fact is that a person CAN live a life our previous generations would consider very nice, at a low cost. It would just look like poverty by 2025 standards. The main trick is to ignore all the new shit that has been invented since that generation was around, and cease caring what anyone else thinks of your home, clothes, whatever. Stop buying fast fashion and get real durable clothes from thrift stores. Grow as much food at home as you can - it’s a lot more than you think. Find work you can walk or bike to even if it pays less. Read books from the library for entertainment or get involved in community theater. Stop thinking you need to fly somewhere in a plane twice a year or you aren’t having any fun. And just check out of all the other bullshit. No one is forcing you to play the latest AAA games on an ultra wide monitor, buy endless shit on Amazon, DoorDash takeout food, doomscroll on a maxi-phone… And most people are far too attached to the area they happen to have lived in for a while. If you’re willing to do some research and move you can find a pocket to live the simple life in.

[–] sacredfire@programming.dev 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Compared to previous generations, most of the luxuries you are describing are a much lower percentage of our overall expenses, while 3 big things: housing, healthcare, and education have outpaced wages dramatically and are a MUCH larger percentage of our expenses compared to previous generations. Yes, you can save a lot of money by being thrifty, but home cost, healthcare, and education are hard if downright impossible for many people to mitigate.

All that being said yes, you could live a much simpler life, but I think the issue is people seeing an expected standing of living that many western countries used to have, slipping away while a very small percentage of people at the top are consolidating phenomenal wealth. So saying to them “hey it’s your fault for not lowering your expectations” comes off as well, ridiculous.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

I hope I’m not triggering anti-capitalists here because I know how implacable they can be. Pointing out how you can make your own life a little bit better is, in my mind, not at odds with all the very valid complaints about 2025 American capitalism.

Many of the folks in r/simpleliving are wealthy enough to afford whatever they need, but that doesn’t automatically make your life simple and leisurely either. You actually have to go after simplicity intentionally no matter what.

[–] Xella@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

So.. we move to fantasy land where jobs exist that pay enough for a small home with a small yard?