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submitted 7 months ago by boem@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 88 points 7 months ago

I'm usually against tariffs but in this case it seems like a pretty fair tit for tat to China basically removing the budgetary concerns for their manufacturers that said manufacturer's international counterparts won't have.

Subsidizing local production for local markets is fine enough, but exporting products made with an infinite money glitch active is more or less an intentional play at market capture.

And before some sinoboo tries to gatcha me I do also object to examples where the west subsidizes domestic production for international markets.

[-] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 69 points 7 months ago

I want a $10000 car that would normally be inflated to $30000 in the US.

I’m no lover of China, but fuck the capitalist auto companies.

[-] Zipitydew@sh.itjust.works 41 points 7 months ago

That $10k Chinese car cost $20k to make. A competitor undercutting the market that much leads to monopolization. When that competitor is being bankrolled by a foreign government it's potentially even a hostile act.

People have been mad for decades about what Walmart did to retail in the US. Taking steps to prevent that from also happening with the auto industry should be appreciated.

[-] fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

it's ~~potentially even~~ a hostile act.

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[-] Buelldozer@lemmy.today 32 points 7 months ago

I want a $10000 car that would normally be inflated to $30000 in the US.

You can't make that same car in the United States for anything like the same price. Even ignoring the Chinese Governments heavy subsidies there's still a massive cost gap due to worker compensation, cost of compliance with safety regulations, cost of compliance with environmental regulations, and a whole host of other things.

The cost of manufacturing in the United States is radically higher than it is in China and that simply isn't fixable unless you're going to unwind Union pay deals, remove environmental laws, and reduce safety restrictions.

You cannot have both, so which are you choosing? Are you going to go with your wallet like a self absorbed capitalist or are you going to support union workers, stronger environmental laws, and more worker safety?

[-] karpintero@lemmy.world 25 points 7 months ago

This is what I try to tell people who just want the cheapest things possible. We're voting with our dollars what kind of world we want.

Also, shipping things across the sea burns some of the worst fuel for the environment so I'd rather buy things made here and support the local economy whenever possible.

[-] fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee 14 points 7 months ago

Love seeing people spread awareness of bunker fuel. It's absolutely terrible and would be illegal if humans were rational and wanted to survive as a species

A single large ship burning that shit pollutes as much as many millions of cars.

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[-] Veraxus@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

so which are you choosing?

I think most people will choose what they can actually afford. The fact that things cost so much and people aren't being paid anywhere near enough to compensate for the skyrocketing price of consumer goods, including vehicles.

Whatever the reasons, there is a very serious and dangerous disconnect between the prices of American goods and the spending power of the average American. Unless we do something about that - and I do not mean short-sighted, punitive, protectionist measures like tariffs - China is going to drink our milkshake.

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[-] JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Thatsthething.

Everyone talks about how shitty the environment is and that we're going to get burned alive in our lifetime...but at the same time, fuck the environment if it means cheap goods.

Here's some fun math. Burning a gallon of gas emits 8,887g of CO2. Let's call it 8.9kg. 1000kgs in a tonne. That means 112 gallons emits a tonne of CO2.

With me so far?

It costs around $500 to remove a tonne of CO2 from the atmosphere.

People act like $3/gal for gas is too much. I say, it's nowhere near high enough. Gas has to cost $4.46/gal just to cover cleaning up the CO2 emitted from it. That's just cleanup.

Maybe if we had to pay the cost for our lifestyle, we'd readdress what we actually need. Instead, we have government subsidized global destruction. All of the EV/renewable tax rebates are great (as long as you can use them)...but it's nothing compared to what oil gets.

Don't even get me started on beef.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 8 points 7 months ago

Mexico is just across the boarder, and US car makers already make their stuff there to save cash. Mexico has a pretty low unemployment rate right now, so pushing even more labor demand their way would help improve a lot of peoples' lives by lifting salaries.

But a lot of the cost is in battery manufacturing, not assembly. We need to experiment with sodium-ion batteries to bring those costs down for economy-class cars, just like China is. Maybe $10k is too little, but $15-20k should be feasible for a very basic car.

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[-] Novi@sh.itjust.works 11 points 7 months ago

I was born into a car centric society. So much so they design the places we live around them. Including dense residential far away from employment that requires transportation. Chop all attempts at decent public transit and now you have created a market of completely artificial demand. Which the law says cars must become more expensive. I have to have a car because of the awful design choices made by unqualified politicians past. Fuck the auto industry. They could have been out saviors by being the example of what union companies do but instead chose violence.

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[-] Pulptastic@midwest.social 34 points 7 months ago

I prefer the circular solution. Make a tariff equal to the delta, and use the tariff to subsidize local production and reduce the delta.

[-] Zipitydew@sh.itjust.works 18 points 7 months ago

Now this I can get behind. We should fight back by subsidization of production as heavily as China is theirs.

[-] umbrella@lemmy.ml 8 points 7 months ago

subsidizing production isnt a bad thing.

it makes for a quicker transition to ev. its only a problem now because china is doing it.

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[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 67 points 7 months ago

God forbid anyone get a cheap EV before US car companies sort out which $50,000+ car brand can position itself as the “luxury” one before accepting that they need to build cheaper models.

[-] miridius@lemmy.world 12 points 7 months ago

The Chinese ones are cheap because they're being subsidised by the Chinese govt to be sold that cheaply overseas as a deliberate economic attack tho

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[-] MadBigote@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

Chinese vehicles suck. Here in mexico they're all over the place, and their quality is questionable. MGs are a joke now. Good for the US to block these imports.

[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago

I’m more annoyed that basically every western car company tried to make a $70,000 luxury EV to upscale their brand instead of making a sensible one that people will actually buy. If we want widespread adoption, we need more EVs that aren’t priced based on some pipe dream that people will wake up one day and think Ford is a luxury brand.

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[-] hark@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago

If these Chinese vehicles suck so much, why are US car companies so afraid of them?

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[-] natarey@lemmy.world 59 points 7 months ago

Don't buy shitty Chinese EVs, buy the somehow even shittier American EVs!

[-] Zehzin@lemmy.world 50 points 7 months ago

For twice the price.

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[-] prole@sh.itjust.works 51 points 7 months ago

Wait, we were allowed to import these cars??

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[-] TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world 33 points 7 months ago

I was just talking to my dad about this the other day and I told him that it was only a matter of time before the US government goes after Chinese EV's at the request of the US auto lobby.

I didn't think it would be this soon, though. Hurray for more garbage EV's for $50,000+

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[-] Zehzin@lemmy.world 31 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I'm surprised the auto cartel aren't making them be banned like chinese smartphones tbh

[-] TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago

They will if there is enough demand for 'em.

[-] bradorsomething@ttrpg.network 24 points 7 months ago
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[-] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 22 points 7 months ago

I’m frankly getting pretty goddamn annoyed at all the people who relentlessly fail to understand that the PRC is heavily subsidizing production of basically all of their EVs in the interest of undercutting literally all other countries that are (or are trying to) produce EVs.

By all means, research what I’m saying here to confirm its veracity - in fact I encourage you to. This is economic warfare, plain and simple.

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[-] sirico@feddit.uk 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)
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[-] thezeesystem@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago

Isn't this just a ban on Chinese evs? Just with extra steps? Make it impossible financially to sell it in the US pretty much is a ban without saying it's a ban

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[-] MargotRobbie@lemmy.world 12 points 7 months ago

Although the BYDs and GWMs and MGs are getting popular in Australia, I have literally never seen a Chinese EV in the States outside of locally built BYD busses, and BYD cars have distinct designs that are fairly easy to spot. So this feels like posturing to me.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I have literally never seen a Chinese EV in the States outside of locally built BYD busses, and BYD cars have distinct designs that are fairly easy to spot. So this feels like posturing to me.

The Chinese business strategy has been to target East Asian, Indian, Russian, and West African car markets. They're not trying to compete with US cars in the United States. They're displacing US export markets in the Third World. You might be able to find them south of the border, however. In the first five months of 2023, Chinese exports to Latin America reached over 330,000 vehicles with a special focus on Mexico and Chile.

Meanwhile, the US has had a long and storied tradition of open hostility to foreign car manufacturers. Consequently ten different car manufacturers have plants in the United States.

These taxation and regulatory provisions are shockingly similar to the Chinese rules that guys like Biden and Trump deride as anti-competitive. And given the quality of US vehicles has long been sketchy at best, with a continued reliance on ICE engines in a market that increasingly favors the cheaper and more reliable electric vehicles, its questionable how long the Big Three domestic brands can even survive.

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[-] Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago

Damn. I was interested in the Volvo ex30

[-] scytale@lemm.ee 34 points 7 months ago

I was too, until I found out they completely removed the driver instrument cluster, so even the speedometer is on the infotainment screen. I’m all for large screens, but the speedo and other necessary gauges should still be in front of the driver or on a HUD.

[-] Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago

100% agree. They really stripped that car down in order to make it work with a 27% import tax from China. Few physical buttons, a soundbar instead of door speakers, etc. There are a number of quirky design

Android Automotive (not to be confused with Android Auto) is the only thing that makes me think I could make it work. More specifically, Google Assistant control for HVAC, defrost, etc.

One of the things that drives me nuts about Telsa is that the buttons are missing, and the voice control is shit in comparison to Assistant and even janky ’ol Siri.

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[-] JovialSodium@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I wonder how repairable and maintainable these will be as compared to EV's from other markets and if replacement batteries will be available as the original ones reach the end of their useful life.

If these concerns end up being valid, and the tariffs are large enough that these cars aren't priced particularly competitively, that'd be enough for this EV consumer to pass it up for his next vehicle. Will be interested to see how it plays out.

Edit: Wanted to say I'm not against Chinese EV's. If it ends up making sense to get one, I will.

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this post was submitted on 10 May 2024
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