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The Year 2100
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2024
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Liberals still hating on Bernie supporters and refusing to accept the idea that voters wanted a shake up of the system, rather than a female version of the status quo establishment left?
...so now we're stuck with a right wing shake up to the system instead.
They’re going to keep pissing on others like this and continue to be surprised when their candidates don’t get elected. It will always be someone else’s fault.
If Bernie was so popular why couldn't he beat Hillary Clinton or Biden in the Primaries?
Or was that someone else's fault?
Because the DNC put their thumbs on the scales and did everything they could to lock him out of the process while doing the opposite for Clinton.
If the chosen, status quo DNC candidates are so popular, why do they keep losing or nearly losing all their elections?
The media HEAVILY favored Hilary for that whole cycle and basically made Bernie look like a joke. He had his "we will need to raise taxes" and that's when everything shifted. DNC was never going to let him be the candidate
"HoW aRE yOU GoiNg tO PAy FoR iT!?"
remember the totally innocent time the people managing the contest had a visit with Bill Clinton on the fucking tarmac? yeah, DNC, message received, you don't even care about how bad that looks...
Did they take his name off the ballot?
Did they change the vote totals?
Did they forbid him from campaigning?
They just 'put their thumbs on the scales'? What does that even mean? They did 'everything they could to lock him out of the process' while letting him campaign and participate in the process? All your examples are vague as fuck, bro.
Sigh... Go read about superdelegates. Then read about reporting. Then read about social engineering. Then look at the mob mentality of wanting to vote for the likely winner. Then apply all of that knowledge to the events as they happened during Bernie's campaigns.
Edit: there, I typed it out since obviously nobody will actually go learn something on their own.
Superdeligates have never once decided a primary.
Here's a simpler explanation: Progressive voters don't turn out, even when it's Bernie. They failed him in 16, they failed him in 20, and now they've failed us all.
It's easy to mail in vote, it is easy to donate money. It's hard to actually physically show up and vote, so they stay at home.
Superdelegates are the primary tool that the DNC used to exert influence over primaries. They've only ever once voted against the voter consensus, but they pledge full support early, which is then used by the media to grossly misrepresent candidate popularity. Mob mentality causes voters to pile behind the leading candidates, and thus the outcome of the primaries can be manipulated through use of super delegates. They abused this mechanism so heavily against Bernie that sweeping changes were made to the way that super delegates operate to avoid torch and pitchforks from an enraged constituency.
There, I explained it to you in a very summarized form, even though I didn't want to.
"I'ma be disrespectful to you, but I expect you to teach me!"
This ain't a debate. lol. If you want people to share their knowledge with you, come correct. Most people would be happy to share information. When you act all dishonest it makes no one want to even talk to you unless they agree with you
The man is out here talking shit and won't show you evidence of why he's right because it's not his job to be a teacher and also you are disrespectful in your challenging of his assertions, am I following you correctly?
The reason for no evidence is because there is no evidence, the reason for my disrespect is because i know he has no evidence. Don't try to pretend like if i came at this from a different angle he'd suddenly be opening the library of Alexandria for us.
If I say, the earth isn't a perfect sphere and that actually it's a bit oval/elliptical (or whatever or supposedly is) and then someone answers all pissy and asking me to prove it, do you really think I'm likely to help them understand my position if I find them rude and annoying? Most people that genuinely want to understand others' point of view don't say things like "or was that someone else's fault?" They say things like"can you explain why you think that?" or maybe "I've been thinking xyz, why is it you think abc instead?"
Did they change the vote totals?:
Yes. Every running candidate next to Bernie pulled out, dedicating their votes to Clinton instead. It was blatant and out in the open. Hell, Bloomberg even "entered" the race late in caucusing and pulled out shortly after an insane ad spend dedicating his votes to Clinton as well. That's "putting their 👍 on the scale".
So do you consider what the French left change did 'changing vote totals' when they dropped out of races where they were splitting the vote and allowing far right candidates to win?
Biden offering people he was running against influence and positions in his government if they drop out and endorse him isn't cheating, it's basic politics and if Bernie had half a brain he'd have done the same thing to keep those people in the race.
Yes.
Also, anything that isn't ranked choice voting that allows people to specify an order of preference at time of vote is not good politics and is not going to, and shouldn't, sit well with progressives. Tit-for-tat is additionally an issue that many voters and progressives consider objectionable (source: exit polls). You can call it basic politics if you want, but if you're progressive you'll need to accept that it's going to continuously cause us to lose elections and bleed voter support. People are clearly tired of establishment politics. Trump has proven that twice. Running as an anti-establishment candidate both times and winning, both times.
Lemmy like Reddit is a circlejerk.
Bernie lost because less people voted for him.
If it wasn't for the undemocratic caucuses, he would have lost earlier.
Source? The way I remember it Bernie didn’t get enough votes.
Out of the last 5 elections they won 3.
The DNC was out of money and severely in debt after Obamas 2012 campaign. They conspired with Hillary because she paid off 80% of the debt and was funding the DNC. She had control of their finances and decisions because the DNC would go under without her
Wow I’ve never heard that. Do you have a source where I can verify?
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774/
...
Interesting read. I was hoping for evidence though instead of anecdote. Also, I don’t see how it supports this claim:
That would be every running primary candidate shifting their votes towards Hillary instead of distributing them evenly. In addition there was the Bloomberg run "out of nowhere" when Bernie was looking to be the headline candidate.
I don’t see how the decisions of each individual candidate would be considered a decision of the DNC.
Then you don't understand US politics.
The majority of voters in America are moderate, not far right or left. For all the candidates to support the person with the best chances of winning is called strategy. For you to claim that the DNC made that decision for each candidate is a conspiracy theory.
That is simply not true. Stop spreading misinformation. In addition I did not claim they made the decision for each candidate. What they did was run a first-past-the-post cacus that allowed candidates with conflicting interests to allocate their political weight against a clearly popular candidate. If they'd done ranked choice voting from the start, it would not be an issue, instead they allowed candidates (like Bloomberg) to spend millions, gather significant support, and then cast that support to a vastly unpopular candidate. You're literally trying to argue Hillary was a good candidate with the best chance of winning but both polls, exit polls, and the caucus itself showed that not to be the case. Without the collaborative actions against Bernie by the other candidates allowed by the DNC Hillary would've never headlined the 2016 ticket.
But they didn’t do ranked choice. So for most of the primary it was Clinton VS Sanders. So we don’t know who would’ve won in ranked choice if all the other candidates stayed in. We only know that Sanders didn’t get as many votes as Clinton.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
Lies and statistics. Out of the last 7 elections they also won 3. And out of the last 3 they only won 1. Really it's a pretty even split so far this century, and counting this last election Republicans have had the edge. So sure the dnc isn't losing all of their elections, but ffs sake they should be doing a lot better than this.
I would like for them to be doing better than this also but if the person I responded to based their argument on the false claim that democrats are losing all the elections then they have already lost their credibility and are arguing in bad faith. So it is reasonable to expect for a source for their other claims.
Do you not remember every media outlet showing all the superdelegates as voting for Clinton even before their votes had been cast making it look like Sanders stood no chance?
Superdelegates have never once decided a primary, they've always gone with the person who got the most regular votes.
I think you're missing my point. Reread my comment. The media was reporting all super delegates as voting for Clinton even before any of them voted. Only a few states had voted. So they were showing stats like
Making it appear like Sanders had no chance.
Ƿen Y do'n vot ėgenſt ð fæciſtſ, Ðm gœıŋ ȯn t d fæciſt cit z Yṙ fȯlt.
spoiler
When you don't vote against the fascists, them going on to do fascist shit is your fault.More friendly fire. I did vote against the fascists. And you continuing to laud blame on everyone else instead of introspecting on how you can make “not fascism” a more attractive message only hurts the cause.
You’re doing harm instead of good. That’s the point.
If you voted against facists then why are you acting like he is talking about you?
Completely obvious context…
Half of the comment you responded to looks like it is in a different language. So you claiming the answer to my question is obvious looks like you’re dodging my question.
Uı do'n o enıƿėn "n fæciſtſ" bııŋ "moṙ ėtcræktiv." Ðı o M æ evrıƿėn luık M n hævıŋ t bı kėnvinſt "n fæciſtſ" z ð betṙ tcoıſ.
spoiler
I don't kwe anyone "not fascists" being "more attractive." They owe me and everyone like me not having to be convinced "not fascists" is fhe better choice.Ð æktcuėl poınt z ðæt ðiſ belıeık ėbaut hau ð establicmint nıdz t lṙn ſėm lesėn hıṙ z nėþıŋ moṙ ðæn ėtemptid leftwacıŋ v ð "ekėnȯmik eıŋgzuyitı" neırėtiv.
spoiler
The actual point is that this bellyache about how the establishment needs to learn some lesson here is nothing more than attempted leftwashing of the "economic anxiety" narrative.Ivin if Đı djenyuinlı ſold M aut f ſėmþıŋ æz impṙſėnėl æz ė dȯlṙ ȯf gæſ, ðæt z'n enı betṙ, it'z æktcuėlı almoſt ƿoṙſ. Uı muıt get blæk bægd bikȯz ſėm ƿuıt æsƿuıp diſuıdid Mı luıf ƿéz ƿoṙþ meıbı ė dȯlṙ ȯf gæſ.
spoiler
Even if they genuinely sold me oit for something as impersonal aa a dollar off gas, that isn't any better. It's actually almost worse. I might get black bagged because some white asswhipe decided my life was worth maybe a dollar off gas.You are so sure I’m some strawman that you’ve imagined or been conditioned to identify you’re attacking someone who is an ally, and you should reflect on that.
No aluı v Mn difendz fæciſtſ.
spoiler
No ally of mine defends fascists.You're defending fascists by making it harder for the left to unify and fight against fascism.
Yunifuı ėgenſt æ fuıt fæcizm buı fuıtıŋ ð kredibėl ȯpozicėn t it æ letıŋ ð fæciſtſ intu paƿṙ tƿuıſ nau?
spoiler
Unify against and fight fascism by fighting against the credible opposition to it and letting the fascists into power twice now?There's no unity because of people like you, so you're the ones letting fascists into power twice. You're still doing it even now, which means you're determined to turn the US into a fascist state. Imagine believing that sowing disunity amongst your party's voter is the answer to winning the election.
Rıl "lᵫk ƿėt Y meıd M d!" enerdjı ėkyuzıŋ M v bııŋ ð eneıblṙ f n ſitıŋ daun æ teıkıŋ Y eneıblıŋ fæcizm ƿ enıþıŋ leſ kritikėl ðæn "yeſ tceıṙmæn v koṙſ tceıṙmæn ðoz næſtıƿæſtı eſtæblicmint ilıtſ ƿil cṙlı lṙn Ðıṙ leſėn ðiſ tuım tceıṙmæn!"
spoiler
Real "look what you made me do!" energy accusing me of being the enabler for not sitting down and taking you enabling fascism with anything less critical than "yes chairman of course chairman those nastywasty establishment elites will surely learn their lesson this time chairman!"You mean the energy of "you're not allowed to question the DNC or you're a Trump supporter" that has been pervasive throughout the election cycle and then pikachuface.jpg when people decide to use other means to make themselves heard over the holier-than-thou attitude of "vote the lesser evil or you're a fascist".
Seems to be working, doesn't it? Look at all the people that showed up to vote for the DNC. That's surely a good reason to continue doing the same thing even after the election.
You're requiring the entire American populace to have the same level of being informed as yourself in order for this plan to work. In the real world, lots of people are incredibly ignorant of the actual political situation in the US. The democrats need to adjust their messaging to get those who aren't politically engaged but vote. That means speaking on the material reality for the average person and discussing how to solve those issues. That means EMBRACING MORE PROGRESSIVE POLICIES.
Yeah, if you know a leftist who stayed home because Harris wasn't left enough, shame the fuck out of them. But that isn't the same as saying Harris lost because she didn't embrace the left. Most Americans don't know they're left-leaning because anything "socialist" must be evil.
Na, ð pu̇blik wṙ told ripıtidly. İf Y didn't vot ėgenſt ð fæciſtſ Y aṙ æt beſt ė kolæboreıtṙ.
spoiler
Nah, the public were told repeatedly. If you didn't vote against the fascists you are at best a collaborator.