this post was submitted on 01 Jan 2024
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[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 50 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Welp, it's officially a hype bubble like cryptocurrency/NFTs.

[–] Aurix@lemmy.world 30 points 2 years ago

Which is also what the last CEO of Square Enix rode on. This is either investor appeasement or indeed improvement of quality with these tools or, and far more likely both buzzwords and producing crap to cut costs.

[–] the_q@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Unfortunately AI's impact is real. This isn't a hype thing; this is a people losing their jobs thing

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 36 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I mean, it is and it isn't. On one hand, yes people will probably lose their jobs with these tools supposed to filled the gaps.

But that doesn't mean the AI tools are actually anywhere near as competent as a human, and it will result in watered-down, anodyne, and to be more blunt, just boring art and writing.

Corporate will use the tools because they're "good enough," but we all know they're really not good enough. They're just one more way to cut costs at the expense of user experience and employee workload (the employees that are left being expected to do more work).

[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Bingo. AI is shockingly good at building simple things, helping with direct questions about items. It cannot replace humans in its current state.

At this point it's CEO bluster just like the blockchain, where the suits are talking about technology like they personally handcrafted it while the actual engineers are sitting in the back of the room thinking "uh, there's no way it can do that".

I think we're going to see a couple hilarious cycles of some shit thinks they can replace humans with AI, fail spectacularly, and then quietly go back.

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I honestly don't think they'll even quietly go back. It's clear "customer service" is becoming something that isn't considered a return on value, so they're shutting them down all over. Customer service will be the number one thing replaced with AI and they won't go back on that.

Customer service for the last 20-30 years has absolutely been nothing but a shield for corporations to hide behind while screwing their customers. Low paid phone jockeys have to deal with people furious at being fucked over by conglomerates like Comcast. There is no way to contact anyone further up the chain, and that is deeply purposeful.

They record all the phone calls, but they refuse to learn anything that benefits the customer from them. All they do is deploy psychological tricks to try to get the customer to be happy while not actually rectifying the problem. It's always a purposeful half-measure that has been deeply researched to calm people down and accept the big unlubed dildo in their ass like they should.

So yeah, the "customer service voice" will be long gone to be replaced with increasing shitty "customer service AI" with no human to talk to, and if you get lost in the shuffle and put in a digital black hole, well, "go fuck yourself" is clearly what they'll be telling you. They already pretty much do this (especially Google) but it will become increasingly pronounced and difficult.

Clawing back anything that corporations have stolen from you will increasingly become an exercise in total futility as you're stuck in an endless AI loop that refuses to give you options that actually address your issue.

[–] the_q@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Tell this to artists losing work because AI can generate professional looking work in seconds for free.

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You do realize it isn't staying the same, right?

There is no status quo with AI.

It's within literal months that leaps are occurring that defy most expert expectations and predictions.

While yes, creative writing is not part of the target of where models are improving right now (and there are IMO clear mistakes being made with foundational models contributing to that poor performance), we're probably less than one dev cycle from the best AI outperforming an above average video game writer with institutional integration of the models.

And really, people thinking this is going to put writers out of business are missing the true value add for publishers.

You'll see the same amount of writers as before. What will change is the amount of writing.

Being able to have a core writing team do the normal work they do of writing out main and side quests and then feeding all that writing into a model spitting out side NPC dialogue fitting in with the events taking place allows developers to make their world come alive in ways previously only accessible to the largest budgets in the industry like RDR2.

This also allows games that are successful to transition into more of a live service product without needing to have a massive audience.

For most live service games, you need as many people as possible playing to justify dedicating resources to continued development, or you need a subscription fee. But niche products with a dedicated fan base which aren't overly popular are too small to justify continuous content development.

With AI that equation changes. More games have the opportunity to keep players engaged longer for continuing adventures when a smaller team can use generative systems to flesh out the product.

Everyone praises No Man's Sky for their continued development with a team of about a dozen putting more and more content out, but the other side of the coin is that they can only successfully deliver updates that feel weighty because they are leveraging procgen to extend their efforts.

Imagine the next version of FF online where not only is there a core main story everyone experiences, but there are also individualized stories woven into it that are shaped around your interactions. Where every NPC can be spoken to and any one of them might lead to your next individualized adventure. A world that feels at once epic and shared with millions of other players while also personal and unique just for you.

Even if the individual writing wasn't as planned out as world event scenario writing from lead writers, I'd sure as hell prefer to spend $16/mo on a world with little repetition and endless adventures than a world that only has a hundred hours of story every year and is mostly running the same things over and over in between waiting for small bursts of content updates.

AI makes perfect sense for any live service provider, and Square Enix has one of the most successful live service products to date. Of course they are going to be investing into it as it rapidly improves.

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[–] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 years ago

For every job that AI kills, you need at least 2 techs to train the AI. This isn't meant to say "go get a job as an AI tech if you're worried about job security" it's more of a "businesses will see the obvious lack of ROI and vision and refuse to implement it".

[–] loobkoob@kbin.social 6 points 2 years ago

It absolutely is. Although, putting aside the obvious ethical debates, I will say that least AI has some practical uses. Crypto-currency and NFTs felt a lot like a solution looking for a problem, and while that can be true of some implementations of AI, there are a lot of valid uses for it.

But yeah, companies rushing to use AI like this, and making statements like this, just screams that they're trying to persuade investors they're "ahead of the curve", and is absolutely indicative of a hype bubble. If it wasn't a hype bubble, they'd either be quietly exploring it externally and not putting out statements like this, or they're be putting out statements excitedly talking specifics about their novel and clever implementations of AI.

[–] darkdemize@sh.itjust.works 34 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I know the Square from my childhood is long dead, but it would be nice if they could stop desecrating it's corpse.

[–] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 years ago

The 5 downvotes are from crypto holders or Sam Bankman-Fried's alt accounts.

[–] Carighan@lemmy.world 24 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I wish they'd aggressively apply it to replacing middle-top management. The jobs that don't add anything except a lot of money being siphoned off, anyways.

[–] Quetzalcutlass@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

I welcome our robot middle-lords.

[–] cyberpunk007@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago (10 children)

AI is such an annoying buzzword at this point. "oh have you heard of AI? We need AI!" Say every industry, and probably even the dairy industry.

[–] Railcar8095@lemm.ee 8 points 2 years ago

We have had costumers REQUIRING that we have AI in our projects in order to sign... With no additional explanation. Sure, here you have a irrelevant kmeans clustering of your SKUs, 100K please.

In all fairness, those customers that knew what they were taking about were great. We did really cool stuff, they just need to understand what they want to answer and be able to provide the data.

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[–] Phegan@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago

Just like companies aggressively used NFTs and we know how well that worked out.

[–] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Cool. I'll continue to aggressively avoid Square Enix games like I have since 2017.

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[–] regbin_@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago

This smells like investor-baiting. Studios don't really need to announce that they're going "aggressive" in using a certain tool.

[–] Mnemnosyne@sh.itjust.works 14 points 2 years ago (5 children)

This is actually what I look forward to most in gaming in the next decade or two. The implementation of AI that can be assigned goals and motivations instead of scripted to every detail. Characters in games with whom we as players can have believable conversations that the devs didn't have to think of beforehand. If they can integrate LLM type AI into games successfully, it'll be a total game changer in terms of being able to accommodate player choice and freedom.

[–] TwilightVulpine@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This is something I used to be excited for but I only have been losing interest the more I hear about AI. What are the chances this will lead to moving character arcs or profound messages? The way LLMs are today, the best we can hope for is Radiant Quests Plus. Not sure a game driven by AIs rambling semi-coherently forever will be more entertaining than something written by humans with a clear vision.

[–] Renacles@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

AI used to not even be able to do that a year or so ago, give it time and it'll get there.

[–] TwilightVulpine@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

There are some fundamental obstacles to that. I don't want, for instance, that a game AI does that which I tell it to do. I want to be surprised and presented with situations I haven't considered. However, LLMs replicate language and symbol patterns according to how they are trained. Their tendency is to be cliche, because cliche is the most expected outcome of any narrative situation.

There is also the matter that ultimately LLMs do not have a real understanding and opinions about the world and themes. They can give us description of trees, diffusion models can get us a picture of a tree, but they don't know what a tree is. They don't have the experiential and emotional ability to make their own mind of what a tree is and represents, they can only use and remix our words. For them to say something unique about trees, they are basically randomly trying stuff until something sticks, without no real basis of their own. We do not have true generalized AI to have this level of understanding and introspection.

I suppose that sufficiently advanced and thorough modelling might give them the appearance of these qualities... but at that point, why not just have the developers write these worlds and characters? Sure that content is much more limited than the potentially infinite LLM responses, but as you wring eternal content from an LLM, most likely you are going to end up leaving the scope of any parameters back into cliches and nonsense.

To be fair though, that depends on the type of game we are talking about. I doubt that a LLM's driven Baldur's Gate would be anywhere as good as the real thing by a long margin. But I suppose it could work for a game like Animal Crossing, where we don't mind the little characters constantly rambling catchphrases and nonsense.

[–] Renacles@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I mostly agree but I think that, in some cases, cliche is exactly what we need. AI could be used for the background dialogue generic NPCs have in open world games if used well.

Overall I think AI is nowhere near advanced enough to be used at a large scale in gaming but it'll probably get there in 5 to 10 years if it continues advancing at this rate.

The main issue I see with it is that you need special hardware to run neural networks in a native environment and personal PCs don't have that so you are stuck with always-online, machine learning or pre-processed data.

[–] ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I wonder if they'll spend as much time defining what an LLM shouldn't be talking about/doing as they would defining what a non-LLM should be talking about/doing.

[–] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Characters in games with whom we as players can have believable conversations that the devs didn’t have to think of beforehand.

Correction: characters in games will have soulless cookie cutter paint by numbers responses that sound hollow and lifeless. AI doesn't generate, it only remixes.

Also, have you interacted with a LLM? They're full of restrictions and they're not very good at finding recent data. How would that implement in a video game? Devs would have to train the LLM to basically annihilate their own job as writers. Which still wouldn't really save the dev company/publisher any money or time.

[–] Kerb@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

i dont quite think that that is what they meant here.

the article was talking about productivity a lot,
and the current ai hype is centered arround generative ai.

i think what they where talking about here,
is using ai to speed up stuff like moddeding and terrain generation.

stuff similar to the second half of this presentation ( starting arround 3:30)

[–] KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Unfortunately Ubisoft is ahead of the curve and is using AI to handle "barks" in its writing process to accomplish this. It's not going very well.

[–] stephfinitely@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Honestly for open world RPGs I can see AI used for making the world feel more alive and creating side quests on the fly. But it really needs to be done right.

[–] Phegan@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago

That's still not really AI, it's just procedural generation wrapped in a new buzz word.

[–] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Side quests on the fly? That already exists. Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4 had radiant AI quests. I would much rather have a game that was hand made by humans where the quests that exist are the quests that were designed. Or, in the case of radiant AI, heavily guardrailed randomness.

[–] Zahille7@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

The only radiant quests I can think of in Oblivion were after you had finished the Dark Brotherhood or Arena quest lines. I don't remember any other random quests from that one.

[–] harmsy@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

inb4 the AI starts pulling its hair out because a middle school girl with no gaming experience dummies her way into being the most powerful player in the game.

[–] A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

Didnt he also say square was going to aggressively get into NFTs until the overwhelming negative response cockslapped the fuck out of him?

I swear, Its getting to the point where I miss SquareSoft and Enix as individual companies, and the SNES as an era for RPGs.

[–] dumpsterlid@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Hmm do y’all still believe the video game industry needed to make cuts and fire workers to the degree they did this year because of overshooting growth with covid? Yes I am sure it is part of it but why is nobody talking about the AI elephant in the room. The video game industry is in the midst of trying to strong arm workers into accepting a fundamental reduction in their quality of life because they can use the threat of replacing workers with AI. It doesn’t matter if it actually works to replace workers with AI, it only matters that it appears fairly plausible for it to pay off for massive companies trying to extract every bit of profit from video games they can.

[–] Tronn4@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I rwas this as them saying they'll be cutting jobs left and right using an AI based solution to keep more profits for the top instead of making game characters smarter

[–] mcc@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 years ago

Where did you get the sense SE is like that? Or their new CEO operates that way?

[–] ekZepp@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago
[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago

"In the short term, our goal will be to enhance our development productivity"

Translation: We are gonna fire so many expensive developers, designers and artists!

[–] HowManyNimons@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Ha ha ha this dumb chord.

[–] flop_leash_973@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

“We are going so hard into the AI synergies. It is going to blow away your quarterly projections about our growth centers and user engagements.” Continued rambling about things for another 20 minutes.

End result will be NPC’s with sometimes better conversation tree’s and micro transactions that are randomized based on the whims of same vague bot no one can articulate the functional details of.

[–] PieMePlenty@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I'd say the end result will be a broken mess delivered behind schedule by a team of juniors.

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