this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2025
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[–] BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

As soon as I was old enough to understand what “pledge allegiance” meant, I refused to participate. It’s antithetical to everything America was supposed to be about. Allegiance is something a subject owes to a sovereign. If you live somewhere that still has ties to monarchy like Canada or the UK, then it would make some amount of sense. In the US, however, it’s literally nothing more than authoritarian indoctrination.

Needless to say, that got me in trouble a lot, especially in new schools or with new teachers.

[–] onlyhall@aussie.zone 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

No no, liberty and justice for all [cishet white men]

[–] beveradb@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 days ago

There isn't even "justice" for cis white men though - justice in the USA barely even exists any more. The greed and corruption runs so deep that the supreme court are all bribed or heavily biased, so I have no confidence whatsoever in the judicial system.

I'm a cis white man, and I'm working to get myself the hell out of this utterly fucked country as soon as I can because everybody in power is blatantly corrupt and there are no functional checks and balances any more.

[–] minorkeys@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago

It was always about obedience.

[–] DicJacobus@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

you know that meme where its the guy saying he prefers the original, and multiple options are thrown at him where he keeps saying "no the real original"

I feel like we have a case of that here, except its what Makes an American, and it continues getting reductive until you've narrowed it down to a Jingoistic or Ultranationalist/Manifest Destiny type WASP (White, Anglo-saxon heritage, Protestant faith christian)

[–] frazw@lemmy.world 120 points 1 week ago (9 children)

I always thought the pledge of allegiance stood out as a bit of a strange brainwashing exercise for the free and fair democracy the United States seeks to be. In fact IMO the nationalism it represents and instils in Americans opened the door to MAGA.

[–] Echolynx@lemmy.zip 1 points 17 hours ago

It's exceptionally Huxleyian.

[–] Wolf@lemmy.today 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's because it's very strange. Most of the rest of the world thinks we are insane for it We only think of it as 'a bit strange' because we were brainwashed into doing it as children.

[–] GojuRyu@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago

Yeah, I was incredulous when I first heard of the pledge being recited in schools. I couldn’t believe how often it was recited or how common the practice was. Surely it would be only a couple of times a year like the anthem was for me, I thought. Or only nationalistic private schools would do do it at the frequency I was told about.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I'm from a country which was under a Fascist dictatorship until 50 years ago - Portugal - and even though the place was a total shithole (so poor that it got Food Aid), the regime was massivelly into pushing Nationalism.

The Far-Right are usually the ones who love Nationalism (there really are no greater flag-shaggers than the Fascist Far-Right) and Militarism.

So, at least for me, things such as a Pledge Of Alliegance in schools in the US always sounded like the kind of brainwashing of children done in Fascist countries - maybe not as far as an organised regime Youth movement (like the "Hitler Youth" or the Portuguese "Mocidade Portuguesa"), but certainly partly in that direction.

[–] darthelmet@lemmy.world 44 points 1 week ago (2 children)

America has always had a contradiction at it's heart: It purports to represent high minded ideas about freedom, egalitarianism, peace, democracy, secular enlightenment ideals, etc... while simultaneously being none of those things for most of it's history. A country built on genocide and slavery, a government that excluded nearly everyone from participating in it, extreme inequality, a war every few years, laws based on religious sentiments of the majority, etc...

That the story it tells itself is so at odds with it's actual identity is a testament to the power of propaganda and self-delusion. I think part of how people try to resolve this contradiction is by refocusing the story to be about steady progress: We may not have always lived up to our ideals, but that was in the past, we learned from them, and got better, as they ignore the problems of today and even actively resist changes that they would applaud if they read it in a history book or saw it in a documentary.

It's not wholly unique in this kind of narrative self-delusion, but I think America's relative lack of longer term history and ethnic identity makes the story a more central part of it's identity. The pledge is one part of this.

[–] skisnow@lemmy.ca 10 points 6 days ago

What makes American brainwashing somewhat unique is that it includes the notion of individuality, originality, free speech and personal uniqueness, whilst successfully managing to railroad all of those things within a set of acceptable parameters.

You’re encouraged to speak freely as long as you’re not communist or anti-American, terms which are then defined so broadly as to cover a whole world of reasonable opinions.

[–] Wolf@lemmy.today 7 points 6 days ago

It’s not wholly unique in this kind of narrative self-delusion, but I think America’s relative lack of longer term history and ethnic identity makes the story a more central part of it’s identity. The pledge is one part of this.

This is exactly why the Republicans have been fighting so hard to whitewash history in our schools, they want people to continue to be unquestioningly loyal to the government, and believe the propaganda. You would think all the crackers in the South who want the Confederacy to 'rise again' would be against it, but it benefits them because it allows them to make slavery seem like it wasn't so bad actually.

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[–] logicbomb@lemmy.world 66 points 1 week ago (10 children)

Speaking of the pledge...

First, why pledge allegiance to a "flag"? It's weird, right?

Second, they added the phrase "under god" later after the pledge had already been adopted. But they also say, "indivisible". If atheists are full citizens, then it cannot be both "under god" and "indivisible", because you've just divided people into atheists and theists in the words immediately preceding.

When you start to put all the pieces together, the pledge is a bunch of nonsense that isn't even consistent with itself. How can you even make such a pledge?

[–] JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago

Was 'one nation indivisible' which they divided with god.

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago

Indivisible means the south best not try that shit again, while under God means no commies (ignore the fact that a socialist pastor wrote the rest of it)

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

It's not meant to be logic - after all, it's targetting kids, who are hardly likely to challenge it and actually think it through like you did - it's meant to train kids to be Nationalistic.

[–] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 20 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I'm a school bus driver and I attended a meeting of my local school board a few months ago. I was totally surprised when they kicked it off with the pledge of allegiance. I hadn't done it since middle school and I couldn't even remember which hand you're supposed to put over your heart.

It's fucked up. I would proudly pledge allegiance to the fucking Constitution instead.

[–] Wolf@lemmy.today 11 points 6 days ago

I wouldn't. Yeah it's a pretty great document all things considered, but it still has it's flaws. Also it took over 200 years to get it to sort of good. Remember the U.S. Constitution still allows slavery as a punishment for a crime, I'd never pledge allegiance to that.

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[–] sad_detective_man@leminal.space 46 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

you were SUPPOSED to internalize the unwavering loyalty to a distant concept of authority, not the principles of mutual goodness and existing within a community you woke little shit

[–] mkwt@lemmy.world 45 points 1 week ago (1 children)

At least they didn't make you do it the original way, with the Bellamy salute:

[–] obinice@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago

Now now, don't give them any ideas.

The way things are going over there it won't be long before the "good old traditional great American ways" like this return.

[–] fitgse@sh.itjust.works 37 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Even in 1st grade in 1989 we used to say “and justice for oil”

[–] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 52 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I was in high school in the '80s. One day in history class we had a military recruiter come speak to us. After he was done the speaker said "any questions?" My buddy Rob raised his hand and said "yeah, I have a question: does napalm still stick to kids?" I'm still proud of Rob for that one.

[–] pineapplelover@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 6 days ago

Rob is a fucking legend. And the answer is yes.

Source: am vietnamese

[–] Wolf@lemmy.today 9 points 6 days ago (1 children)

You can't just leave us hanging like that, what was the response?

[–] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 11 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The teacher immediately said "OK no more questions" and that was that. Sorry, I wish this story had a better punchline.

For the record yes, napalm does still stick to kids.

[–] Wolf@lemmy.today 8 points 6 days ago

Well fuck Rob for being curious I guess. If I were his teacher I would have laughed my ass off and gave him an A.

[–] BroBot9000@lemmy.world 37 points 1 week ago

How is that not cult behaviour? Sounds like indoctrination and grooming to me.

[–] youCanCallMeDragon@lemmy.world 34 points 1 week ago (5 children)

They thought you knew that “all” was short for “all white people”

[–] ouRKaoS@lemmy.today 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

All straight, white, land owning Christian Men.

[–] howrar@lemmy.ca 7 points 6 days ago

Hence all lives matter

[–] minkymunkey_7_7@lemmy.world 18 points 1 week ago (1 children)

White men that is. Landowners. Rich white men.

I stand corrected

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[–] glimse@lemmy.world 27 points 1 week ago (3 children)

I was a bit edgy in high school and had to write a 1-page paper to the principal to be allowed to sit after refusing to recite the pledge lol

My 4 paragraphs where about the separation of church and state, injustice, my own freedom to sit, and how cultish it felt.

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[–] Tattorack@lemmy.world 21 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It still sickens me how in America children in school need to swear allegiance to the American flag all the time.

What the fuck is wrong with you? No wonder patriotism over there is so weird and cringeworthy.

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 20 points 1 week ago (3 children)

A Magazine Made Up The Pledge of Allegiance To Sell US Flags

In 1891, the magazine The Youth's Companion invited readers to write and ask for cards bearing the following message: "This Certificate, representing a 10 cent contribution, entitles the holder to One Share in the patriotic influence of the School Flag." When the enterprising tyke had sold 100 of these 19th-century NFTs, they'd send the proceeds to The Youth's Companion and receive a flag in return. That's about $300 per flag, in 2021 dollars.

And why were young readers so willing to put in unpaid hours as salespeople raising money to buy flags? Because of the campaign started by The Youth's Companion called the "Flag Over Every Schoolhouse" movement. They advertised this movement to schools directly as well as in their publication, and to really give schools a reason to want flags, the magazine created the Pledge of Allegiance.

The magazines' marketing department came up with the pledge, and had an on-staff minister to do the wording (though not the "under God" clause, which was added decades later). They got Congress's support, aiming to get the whole country reciting the pledge by the 400th anniversary of Columbus' birth. It seems like the magazine also did care about instilling national pride, but it was the subscriptions department who were behind these campaigns; the editorial department wanted no part in it. They sold hundreds of thousands of flags at what sounds like significantly above cost.

[–] darthelmet@lemmy.world 22 points 1 week ago

A company trying to sell us junk being behind a thing that doesn't make any sense is the most American thing ever.

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